When did the katar move to the northern part of India?

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2016, 05:42 PM

Jens, I am so glad you bring up the 'well travelled' topic of the origins of the katar again, and as you have set the stage for the advance of serious study into Indian arms with the interest stirred in you outstanding book, I am hoping others will join here in this quest.

If I recall, you have established the earliest probable date for the beginning of these distinctive transverse grip daggers sometime in 10th century, and likely in Orissa, and by evaluating the iconography from the caves (I think Ellora). Can you say again more on those? you mentioned that the comprehensive representation of the arms of the period indicated about the time when the katar was notably absent.

The big problem is the also notable absence of any linear chronology of development until the pronounced presence of katars in the 16th century.
The painting of Babur from 1598 showing katar present is of course likely in accord with artists representing weaponry of their own period, as Babur died in 1530, but still, it would seem that as a form it was probably already well established.

The katars of South India, from Tanjore and others, seem to basically have a prominent hand guard or 'hood', while the primary transverse grip structure stands behind these features. So it would seem that this 'hooded' feature is more a regional character than developmental stage. Again these are 16th century but the 'hoods' seem to diminish later.

So did the katar form really move northward, or had it already been there in reduced presence, and became an embellished form in the South later. The diffusion of a form is not confined to a specific direction, even with inter tribal or geopolitical situations. Influences transmit through trade, the movements of people, families and many factors, so we cannot restrict development to known conquests or dynastic movement alone.

I have always wondered if the transverse grip design was actually created outside the Indian subcontinent, perhaps in simplification of cases of a spike or blade in the boss of a shield (transversely held). This is something Jens and I considered and talked on for years as we considered the Spanish 'adarga' and the mysterious 'Manople' (shown in Stone, and Calvert). This was a gauntlet (pata like) dagger of late period, but still begged question of its true origins.

Could any sort of transverse grip dagger exist in Persian or early Central Asian context? That would be the key.

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2016, 06:14 PM

Hi Jim,

Interesting questions you ask.
When I wrote the article How Old is the Katar? I only had a drawing of it, but decided to write the article all the same. Before the article was published a friend of mine, who lives in India, asked a photographer in Orissa, to find the statue and photograph it. The man said he had used an hour, although he knew which temple he had to look for, and he had found nothing!
Later I have bought a book on temples in Orissa, and there the statue is, and it is very clear that the 'katar' was used as a weapon.

Welch writes that no katars are found on paintings showing katars, before the Mughal time. This does not mean that the katar was not used in Rajasthan, it could have had a low status. However, when Akbar came to power, and wanted the Muslims and the Hindus to get closer, maybe, and only maybe, the katar was given a higher status.

I dont know how it all went, but I intend to dig into it.

Jens

Battara · 12th December 2016, 01:15 AM

I do know that it and a drawing of one is in the Baburnama, 16thc.

Jens Nordlunde · 12th December 2016, 12:26 PM

Battara,
In my copy of Babur-Nama there is not drawing of a katar, could you please show what it looks like?
On page 528 in my copy I found a list of presents Babur gave to different people, and one was '(qabsa) of broad daggers (jamd'har) set with jewels.'
According to the book this should have taken place between October 1525 and October 1526.
If Babur used jeweled katars for gifts so short after he had invated the country, he must have accepted the Rajput weapons as being very effecient. The weapons he brought to India, must have been strongly influenced from the Turks, so he may not even have known the katar when he invaded India.
This must mean that the Rajputs had known and used the katar for a long time. before Babur paid them a visit.

Mercenary · 24th December 2016, 08:33 PM

Gujarat, 1453

Jens Nordlunde · 25th December 2016, 01:23 PM

Mercenary, Yes this is early, but from where is it?

Mercenary · 3rd January 2017, 01:01 PM

Dear Jeans
Excuse me that so long did not answer. I rarely come here besides now big Russian's alcoholic New Year's holidays.
I got this image when I was interested in early Jain style Indian Painting:
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/jaim/hd_jaim.htm
It is original Western Indian style of 15th century with minimal muslim art influence. Now I am not able to find where the picture from

12th December 2016, 12:26 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Battara, In my copy of Babur-Nama there is not drawing of a katar, could you please show what it looks like? On page 528 in my copy I found a list of presents Babur gave to different people, and one was '(qabsa) of broad daggers (jamd'har) set with jewels.' According to the book this should have taken place between October 1525 and October 1526. If Babur used jeweled katars for gifts so short after he had invated the country, he must have accepted the Rajput weapons as being very effecient. The weapons he brought to India, must have been strongly influenced from the Turks, so he may not even have known the katar when he invaded India. This must mean that the Rajputs had known and used the katar for a long time. before Babur paid them a visit. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 12th December 2016 at 09:43 PM.

24th December 2016, 08:33 PM	#5
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	Gujarat, 1453 Attached Images

11th December 2016, 05:42 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Jens, I am so glad you bring up the 'well travelled' topic of the origins of the katar again, and as you have set the stage for the advance of serious study into Indian arms with the interest stirred in you outstanding book, I am hoping others will join here in this quest. If I recall, you have established the earliest probable date for the beginning of these distinctive transverse grip daggers sometime in 10th century, and likely in Orissa, and by evaluating the iconography from the caves (I think Ellora). Can you say again more on those? you mentioned that the comprehensive representation of the arms of the period indicated about the time when the katar was notably absent. The big problem is the also notable absence of any linear chronology of development until the pronounced presence of katars in the 16th century. The painting of Babur from 1598 showing katar present is of course likely in accord with artists representing weaponry of their own period, as Babur died in 1530, but still, it would seem that as a form it was probably already well established. The katars of South India, from Tanjore and others, seem to basically have a prominent hand guard or 'hood', while the primary transverse grip structure stands behind these features. So it would seem that this 'hooded' feature is more a regional character than developmental stage. Again these are 16th century but the 'hoods' seem to diminish later. So did the katar form really move northward, or had it already been there in reduced presence, and became an embellished form in the South later. The diffusion of a form is not confined to a specific direction, even with inter tribal or geopolitical situations. Influences transmit through trade, the movements of people, families and many factors, so we cannot restrict development to known conquests or dynastic movement alone. I have always wondered if the transverse grip design was actually created outside the Indian subcontinent, perhaps in simplification of cases of a spike or blade in the boss of a shield (transversely held). This is something Jens and I considered and talked on for years as we considered the Spanish 'adarga' and the mysterious 'Manople' (shown in Stone, and Calvert). This was a gauntlet (pata like) dagger of late period, but still begged question of its true origins. Could any sort of transverse grip dagger exist in Persian or early Central Asian context? That would be the key.

11th December 2016, 06:14 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, Interesting questions you ask. When I wrote the article How Old is the Katar? I only had a drawing of it, but decided to write the article all the same. Before the article was published a friend of mine, who lives in India, asked a photographer in Orissa, to find the statue and photograph it. The man said he had used an hour, although he knew which temple he had to look for, and he had found nothing! Later I have bought a book on temples in Orissa, and there the statue is, and it is very clear that the 'katar' was used as a weapon. Welch writes that no katars are found on paintings showing katars, before the Mughal time. This does not mean that the katar was not used in Rajasthan, it could have had a low status. However, when Akbar came to power, and wanted the Muslims and the Hindus to get closer, maybe, and only maybe, the katar was given a higher status. I dont know how it all went, but I intend to dig into it. Jens

12th December 2016, 01:15 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I do know that it and a drawing of one is in the Baburnama, 16thc.

25th December 2016, 01:23 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Mercenary, Yes this is early, but from where is it?

3rd January 2017, 01:01 PM	#7
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	Dear Jeans Excuse me that so long did not answer. I rarely come here besides now big Russian's alcoholic New Year's holidays. I got this image when I was interested in early Jain style Indian Painting: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/jaim/hd_jaim.htm It is original Western Indian style of 15th century with minimal muslim art influence. Now I am not able to find where the picture from