A Needle

A. G. Maisey · 10th December 2016, 11:32 PM

Does anybody have any idea at all what this is?

I do not know.

It looks like a bag needle, just a little under 6" long, however, it is far too elegant to sew up bags of wheat.

The hilt is agate, the ferrule and tang rivet plate are both high content silver, the patina suggests at least 18th century.

Suggestions?

Anandalal N. · 11th December 2016, 02:30 AM

Hi Alan,

A. G. Maisey · 11th December 2016, 02:38 AM

Thanks for your thought, but no.

I have a relative who collects hair pins, and this is nothing like those.

In fact, when I first saw this, before I handled it, I thought it was a weapon, something like a bodkin, then when I saw the square slot --- I guess to accept thread --- I thought it might be a needle. It is quite robust.

Anandalal N. · 11th December 2016, 02:40 AM

Yes. in any event the head looks too heavy to stay in place.

A. G. Maisey · 11th December 2016, 03:32 AM

Yeah, far too heavy for a hairpin

Battara · 11th December 2016, 05:20 AM

Could it be for stitching leather?

A. G. Maisey · 11th December 2016, 06:06 AM

It could be for anything at the moment.

I've done a fair bit of leather work, and it is nothing like any modern tools, in fact, it is not really made like a tool:- agate handle, silver fittings, elegant, nice.

I was thinking maybe tapestry needle, maybe something for use in lacing a corset. It has a sort of female feel to it. Maybe even for lacing some sort of boot. Its not all that long ago that people needed to use little hook tools to lace footwear, I've got a couple of these somewhere, and although nothing at all like this thing, the push-through could be an alternate way of lacing boots, rather than the pull-through.

Ian · 11th December 2016, 07:16 AM

Alan, I think it is a type of rug needle, possibly for making loop rugs.

Ian.

A. G. Maisey · 11th December 2016, 06:32 PM

This sounds feasible. I have no idea what such a needle might look like, but rugs are made on heavy woven base, so yes, maybe.

But the thing that keeps causing me problems is the sheer elegance of the thing. This is no simple tool.

David · 11th December 2016, 08:01 PM

It is an elegant tool. I quite like it regardless of its purpose.

Ian · 11th December 2016, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This sounds feasible. I have no idea what such a needle might look like, but rugs are made on heavy woven base, so yes, maybe.

Alan, I was thinking of loop rugs rather than woven rugs. In the case of loop rugs, a fairly wide needle with wool through the eye is poked through the back of a piece of hessian or similar strong backing and then pulled out leaving behind a loop of the wool. This is repeated many times, often with different colors etc. to make a pattern. The many loops so created are then cut so that you have two loose ends, and the loose ends are trimmed to create a rug of thick pile. This was one of my craft assignments, along with basket weaving, when I was 10 and went to State School in Victoria. It is slow and tedious work, but the finished product was not bad, and it felt great to walk on the thick pile. There are kits with various designs that can still be purchased in Australia.

Modern examples of various sized loop rug needles are shown below.

Ian

A. G. Maisey · 11th December 2016, 08:24 PM

Just spent ten minutes trying to find out things I did not know.

I reckon you're right Ian, this thing is a punch needle, punch needle work began in the 15th century and has roots in Russia as a form of embroidery, its use as a technique for making rugs seems to have started with seamen.

Punch needle.

How old, where from?

Too nice for a sailor. Too big for embroidery.

Ian · 11th December 2016, 08:54 PM

Here's a picture of various sized needles used to make loop rugs.

A. G. Maisey · 11th December 2016, 10:45 PM

--- but mine's got a silver and agate handle.

Thanks.

Yes, I had a look at what it is possible to buy now to do this stuff, there is one --- Oxford? --- that feeds the yarn through the handle, which looks as if it would make life a lot easier.

Battara · 12th December 2016, 01:30 AM

Alan, it is not unusual to have "professional" or court workers having their tools specially made like this with special and expensive materials. Ottomans did this a lot, like plume cutting knives for special scribes made of jade or coral.

A. G. Maisey · 12th December 2016, 02:24 AM

Yes, I'm aware of that, previously I was thinking of gentle-born ladies working tapestries, but now I'm thinking of gentle-born ladies going to rug-hooking circles --- or since its a punch needle maybe that should gentle-born ladies going to rug punching sessions --- getting in practice for a bit domestic violence when they get home.

Roland_M · 12th December 2016, 02:34 PM

Hello Alan,

this could be an old stitching awl.
Maybe a tool for a shoemaker.

Roland

A. G. Maisey · 12th December 2016, 07:56 PM

Thank you for your thoughts Roland, but no, definitely not a shoemakers tool.

M ELEY · 22nd December 2016, 02:55 AM

I'm kinda with Battara on this one. There were fine examples of almost any tool depending on the tradesman and their particular trade. The fine rugs coming out of Persia and Turkey were fit for royalty...why not a fine set of tools to go along with it? its just like those betal nut cutters with their elaborate forms and (sometimes) materials...I mean, they were a nut cracker, for Lord's sake!
Mark

A. G. Maisey · 22nd December 2016, 08:05 AM

Yes, I have no problem at all with the idea that high class craftsmen had high class tools, in fact I do have other examples of high quality tools, and have seen even more, but this is a punch needle, it was used to make (apparently) low class rugs, more or less folk art type rugs.

Sailors made them on long voyages, country women made them, it was a big thing in old Russia, much finer punch needles than this one were used for the ornamentation of religious clothing. I do not know, but I rather doubt, that craftsmen in the employ of royal courts made rugs, or other needlework, that required a large, heavy needle like this one.

Yes, its a high class tool, so who might have owned a high class, heavy duty punch needle, a tool for making folk-art rugs?

In respect of beetle nut cutters, in Indonesia these are known as "kacip" and are a part of the paraphernalia used in the relevant ceremony. Even very ordinary people owned quite elaborate beetle sets. In recent years, say the last 20 years or so, they have attained high status as collectables in Indonesia and their value is now more or less the same as keris of similar quality.

10th December 2016, 11:32 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	A Needle Does anybody have any idea at all what this is? I do not know. It looks like a bag needle, just a little under 6" long, however, it is far too elegant to sew up bags of wheat. The hilt is agate, the ferrule and tang rivet plate are both high content silver, the patina suggests at least 18th century. Suggestions? Attached Images

11th December 2016, 08:54 PM	#13
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,512	Here's a picture of various sized needles used to make loop rugs. Attached Images

11th December 2016, 02:30 AM	#2
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Hi Alan,

11th December 2016, 02:38 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Thanks for your thought, but no. I have a relative who collects hair pins, and this is nothing like those. In fact, when I first saw this, before I handled it, I thought it was a weapon, something like a bodkin, then when I saw the square slot --- I guess to accept thread --- I thought it might be a needle. It is quite robust.

11th December 2016, 02:40 AM	#4
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Yes. in any event the head looks too heavy to stay in place.

11th December 2016, 03:32 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Yeah, far too heavy for a hairpin

11th December 2016, 05:20 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,342	Could it be for stitching leather?

11th December 2016, 06:06 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	It could be for anything at the moment. I've done a fair bit of leather work, and it is nothing like any modern tools, in fact, it is not really made like a tool:- agate handle, silver fittings, elegant, nice. I was thinking maybe tapestry needle, maybe something for use in lacing a corset. It has a sort of female feel to it. Maybe even for lacing some sort of boot. Its not all that long ago that people needed to use little hook tools to lace footwear, I've got a couple of these somewhere, and although nothing at all like this thing, the push-through could be an alternate way of lacing boots, rather than the pull-through.

11th December 2016, 07:16 AM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,512	Alan, I think it is a type of rug needle, possibly for making loop rugs. Ian.

11th December 2016, 06:32 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	This sounds feasible. I have no idea what such a needle might look like, but rugs are made on heavy woven base, so yes, maybe. But the thing that keeps causing me problems is the sheer elegance of the thing. This is no simple tool.

11th December 2016, 08:01 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	It is an elegant tool. I quite like it regardless of its purpose.

11th December 2016, 08:24 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Just spent ten minutes trying to find out things I did not know. I reckon you're right Ian, this thing is a punch needle, punch needle work began in the 15th century and has roots in Russia as a form of embroidery, its use as a technique for making rugs seems to have started with seamen. Punch needle. How old, where from? Too nice for a sailor. Too big for embroidery.

11th December 2016, 10:45 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	--- but mine's got a silver and agate handle. Thanks. Yes, I had a look at what it is possible to buy now to do this stuff, there is one --- Oxford? --- that feeds the yarn through the handle, which looks as if it would make life a lot easier.

12th December 2016, 01:30 AM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,342	Alan, it is not unusual to have "professional" or court workers having their tools specially made like this with special and expensive materials. Ottomans did this a lot, like plume cutting knives for special scribes made of jade or coral.

12th December 2016, 02:24 AM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Yes, I'm aware of that, previously I was thinking of gentle-born ladies working tapestries, but now I'm thinking of gentle-born ladies going to rug-hooking circles --- or since its a punch needle maybe that should gentle-born ladies going to rug punching sessions --- getting in practice for a bit domestic violence when they get home.

12th December 2016, 02:34 PM	#17
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Hello Alan, this could be an old stitching awl. Maybe a tool for a shoemaker. Roland

12th December 2016, 07:56 PM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Thank you for your thoughts Roland, but no, definitely not a shoemakers tool.

22nd December 2016, 02:55 AM	#19
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,204	I'm kinda with Battara on this one. There were fine examples of almost any tool depending on the tradesman and their particular trade. The fine rugs coming out of Persia and Turkey were fit for royalty...why not a fine set of tools to go along with it? its just like those betal nut cutters with their elaborate forms and (sometimes) materials...I mean, they were a nut cracker, for Lord's sake! Mark

22nd December 2016, 08:05 AM	#20
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Yes, I have no problem at all with the idea that high class craftsmen had high class tools, in fact I do have other examples of high quality tools, and have seen even more, but this is a punch needle, it was used to make (apparently) low class rugs, more or less folk art type rugs. Sailors made them on long voyages, country women made them, it was a big thing in old Russia, much finer punch needles than this one were used for the ornamentation of religious clothing. I do not know, but I rather doubt, that craftsmen in the employ of royal courts made rugs, or other needlework, that required a large, heavy needle like this one. Yes, its a high class tool, so who might have owned a high class, heavy duty punch needle, a tool for making folk-art rugs? In respect of beetle nut cutters, in Indonesia these are known as "kacip" and are a part of the paraphernalia used in the relevant ceremony. Even very ordinary people owned quite elaborate beetle sets. In recent years, say the last 20 years or so, they have attained high status as collectables in Indonesia and their value is now more or less the same as keris of similar quality.