PBX

[A. G. Maisey]

He was a bit of a cult figure, still is if truth be known.

Really good at two things:- spending money and fathering children.

I've met a number of people who claimed that he was their ancestor, including my housekeeper, whose mother was one of the Karaton dancers.

Here he is:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakubu...r_10001903.jpg

[Kulino]

Dear Alan ,
You honour me with the privilege of using your first name. Thank you.
You are right, it is all what you choose to believe in.
Seems to work for me though.
The old ways appear to be on the verge of being lost.
When I asked my teacher if he was sad or sorry that all this knowledge is about to disappear he replied very philosophically, if it is worth something it will survive. If not, it will disappear.
True, but sad. This forum proves that there is still some interest, which is nice. Sharing ideas with you and your comments are a delight. I will post more interesting keris for your consideration.

Njirami could be interpreted as the occasion where the court pusaka would have been cleaned, publicly. I haven’t attended one personally so I can’t report first hand to what extend the used pusaka are clearly visible or how close the public could come to the site. Using private keris during this event would be impossible to me.

If you are into keris kuno, the ones from Madura are a pain. A few years ago I sat with pak Eko, a mranggi, ahli keris in the Yogja area and we discussed these keris, comparing old with new. He expected that in the near future it would be increasingly difficult to tell old from new, even for the experts. From what I see now, he was right. At least for the starting collector. You really have to have had hundreds of keris passing through your hands to tell right from wrong. And even then, there are the ones which make you doubt.

[A. G. Maisey]

I feel myself that it is not a matter the value of something that permits it to survive, but rather its relevance, and within a society the relevance of anything varies dependent upon the layer or segment of society that is considered.

In Jawa, if we put a culturally based question, the same question, to people who come from different segments of the society, we will sometimes get very different answers. That which is relevant to a farmer who is still using traditional methods is not at all relevant to somebody who has completed a university degree and wants both himself, and his country to be seen as a part of the "Modern World".

Yes, I do understand the PR displays that the Karatons put on, but once again I do most sincerely suggest that the nature of at least the Surakarta pusakas be given a very close look.

In respect of identification of old keris, one does not need to have handled hundreds of keris. This is very, very far from reality.

One needs to have handled thousands of keris and to have handled a good number of those under the guidance of somebody who truly understands what he is looking at.

How to do this at the present time?

I do not know.

[Kulino]

You gave better words to these concepts than I did. Since I'm not a native speaker in English it is always hard to find the correct words or phrases to express the nuances felt. Thank you Alan.
Indeed, over the last fourty years I saw thousands of keris passing through my hands, discussing them with many others, among which many ahli keris both in Europe and on Jawa. This is the only way to learn.
I'm used to look at lots of details like shapes of gandik, selassih, endas cicak, gandja, puncuk of the blade, definition of the pecetan area, the general appearance of the blad itself (condro), shape and construction of the peksi, all in combination with sound of the metal, skin, colour, weight, balance and sometimes even the scent. I find this not to be an exact science.
I'm always eager to learn more. Is is appropriate to ask where I can find the criteria Empu Suparman used for his determination?

[A. G. Maisey]

Those indicators would be useless to you Kulino.

The indicators can be represented by words, certainly, but only the man himself could explain those words, and what they represented to him. Regrettably he left us many years ago.

While we are on the subject of words, may I enquire where you learnt the words you are using:-

"--- I'm used to look at lots of details like shapes of gandik, selassih, endas cecek, gandja, puncuk of the blade, definition of the pecetan area, the general appearance of the blad itself (condro), shape and construction of the peksi ---" ?

[Kulino]

The words I use, some come from the discussions I had and have with others. Other words come from the long list of literature there is. Such as Kaliwon Pudjangga Kraton Surakarta by R.Ng. Ronggowarsito and other (alleged kraton) manuscripts.
They should indicate features or specific parts of the wingkinan. Like the head or tail of the ganja, the tip or the glow or sound of the metal, etc. Maybe misspelled or misguided in your opinion?

[Kulino]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Those indicators would be useless to you Kulino.

The indicators can be represented by words, certainly, but only the man himself could explain those words, and what they represented to him. Regrettably he left us many years ago.

While we are on the subject of words, may I enquire where you learnt the words you are using:-

"--- I'm used to look at lots of details like shapes of gandik, selassih, endas cecek, gandja, puncuk of the blade, definition of the pecetan area, the general appearance of the blad itself (condro), shape and construction of the peksi ---" ?

Additionally, I recognize in your words, the way I studied the meaning of pamor patterns.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your response Kulino.

I think I might now understand a reason for your use of this rather strange terminology. I thought I might have been looking at keris terminology used by some particular keris study group, or perhaps terminology used in a place outside Jawa Tengah, but it seems this is not so.

Javanese is what linguists refer to as a "non-standardised language", in very simple terms this means that when spoken the speaker can change vowel and consonant order---or even the letters--- to provide a more pleasant delivery of the spoken word, the only rule is that the person to whom he is speaking must understand what is being said. This type of speech can develop into a game where each person is trying to outdo the other with his inventiveness.
When the original Javanese script of a printed or written word is transliterated into roman text, there can be degree of inconsistency in the spellings. This becomes particularly confusing when trying to correctly pronounce Javanese words printed in the modern era with type faces that make no provision for the necessary diacritical marks. This means that the only way one can reliably pronounce the word is to have been taught how to pronounce it. In this way, spoken Javanese is similar to English.

So, what all this comes down to is that it is difficult to fault anybody on spellings used in Javanese written in roman text.

However, when the spellings used do not render a clear meaning, or in fact render an incorrect meaning, then we have problems.

Below I have listed the words you have used that cause me some difficulty, and have commented on use of these words:-



endhas the term "endas cecak" is correctly given as "sirah cecak", which is more polite than "endas cecak".
If one wished to obliquely insult both Javanese indigenous belief, and/or the present custodian of a keris one could give a degree of insult by using the ngoko word in relation to the sirah cecak of the related keris, rather than using the krama inggil term. To understand why it is necessary to respect a keris, especially a pusaka keris, or a personal keris, one needs to understand the relationships of the keris in Javanese culture

cecek the word "cecek" means a dot or a point, I believe the word that was intended is "cecak", which is a kind of small house lizard
Thus your "endhas cecek" should be "sirah cecak", the broad end of the gonjo, given this name because of the similarity in form to the head of that small house lizard.
sirah(kr) = head, endhas(ng) = head

puncuk = as far as I can determine there is no Javanese word "puncuk", but there are several similar words, listed below; I'm guessing that you mean "pucak", or maybe "puncak" and using that word to indicate the point of the keris.
puncu = to point a sharp weapon
puncon = mountain peak
pucak = summit
puncak (Bahasa Indonesia) = top of a mountain

The correct word to use in Surakarta terminology for the point of a keris is "panetes", from "tetes" :- "able to be pierced by something", "panetes" : "able to pierce something"



condro = as far as I can determine there is no Javanese word "condro", the nearest I can get to this is "condre", an alternate pronunciation for "cundrik", a dagger.
You say that "condro" means the general appearance of the blade. The word normally used for this is "pawakan" or "wangun". Pawakan refers specifically to the posture of a man, wangun refers to appearance, design , shape, pawakan is the more polite term.

peksi --- in Javanese the word "peksi" means "bird", it is krama, the word for a keris tang is "pesi" .

The alternate pronunciation of "peksi" (bird) is "pesi". As in B.I., the Javanese "k" is a glottal stop, which means it is often very difficult to hear when spoken crudely or fast, thus some people habitually gloss it and omit the glottal stop altogether
This similarity in words has led to ongoing, and sometimes very funny error on the part of non-native speakers of Javanese

wingkinan = As far as I can determine, there is no Javanese word "wingkinan". I believe the word intended is "wingkingan", which means "back, rear" in Modern Javanese, in Old Javanese it also meant the buttocks or backside.

"Wingkingan" has an alternate meaning which refers to time.
It is not an alternate word for the keris.
The correct word to refer to a complete keris when worn at the back is "wangkingan". "Wangkingan" comes from "wangking" which in Modern Javanese means "slim waisted", but in Old Javanese simple meant "waist", so something worn at the waist becomes "wangkingan".

The blade alone of the keris cannot be referred to as a "wangkingan", nor can a keris that is not being worn be referred to as a "wangkingan", the use of "wangkingan" is strictly limited to a keris being worn at the back. The level of the word "wangkingan" is krama inggil.

This confusion between "wingkingan" and "wangkingan" is very common, even amongst native speakers of Javanese, about the only people who consistently get it right seem to be people who are involved with keris, or who regularly need to dress in a formal fashion.

selassih --- as far as I can determine there is no Javanese word "selassih", the nearest I can get to this is "selasih/slasih" which is kind of herb, I think the herb might be basil.
"selasih/slasih" is an alternate form of "tlasih"


Just to clarify:- I am not a walking Javanese dictionary, yes, I do have some low level Javanese (ngoko), but I cannot use krama or krama inggil. However, I do have immediate access to a number of native speakers of Javanese, and I do own textbooks and dictionaries. I was able to address most of the above from my own knowledge, but a couple of the words were simply beyond me, and also beyond my other sources.

I enjoyed trying to work out what you were saying, it was a learning experience.Thank you.

However, in your own best interests, I most sincerely suggest that you request your teachers to assist you in learning some basic Javanese.

EDIT

The image is taken from Haryono Haryoguritno's "Keris Jawa", which at the present time can probably be regarded as the standard reference for just about everything relating to physical aspects of the Javanese keris. It is a book that really should be in the library of every person interested in keris