Mughal? or Indian dagger?.

ALEX · 21st November 2016, 09:55 AM

Some experts call any green stone a jade, including green quartz, jadeite, etc. It depends what definition they use. "Real" jade is referred to as Nephrite, and can contain some quartz. You may see
THIS LINK

mariusgmioc · 21st November 2016, 08:40 PM

1. Why am I pretty sure it is not Jade (Nephrite or Jadeite)?!
1.1 Jade was and is in big demand and commands rather high prices. Therefore, it is used on valuable pieces of certain artistic value and not wasted on "tourist" items.
2. Why am I pretty sure it is Onyx?!
1.1 Onyx of precisely this coulour is found in abundance in central Anatolia and comes very cheap.
1.2 Onyx is charaterised in that it has a layered structure with parallel layers (see the photo of the horse) which can be easily identified also in the hilt (see the first three photos). Albeit I have seen pieces of up to 3 centimetres thick without any discernable layer.
3. Why am I pretty sure it was machined with a rotary tool?!
1.1 The grooves have circular cross-section and display transverse parallel traces of the rotating tool (see photos 5 and 6).
1.2 The entry/exit point of the tool is round (see last photo).
But I am definitely not an expert.

Battara · 22nd November 2016, 11:48 PM

I must also add that the motifs and style of carvings on the hilt are not typically Mughal. Closest I have seen are more related to Persian, but the quality of the carving again is not like that found in Persian ivory hilts (albeit a softer material).

I must also agree with the possibility of dremel tool work looking at the micro-pictures.

kai · 23rd November 2016, 01:31 AM

I'm also with Marius et al. - clear signs of modern tools (and low quality work, sorry).

Regards,
Kai

mariusgmioc · 23rd November 2016, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I must also add that the motifs and style of carvings on the hilt are not typically Mughal. Closest I have seen are more related to Persian, but the quality of the carving again is not like that found in Persian ivory hilts (albeit a softer material).

I must also agree with the possibility of dremel tool work looking at the micro-pictures.

As Oliver pointed out, the blade looks rather typical Turkish made and the decorations on the hilt look Persian style, yet, they are quite different from the genuine Persian works.

The blade also looks rather thin and flat like cut from sheet/band stock steel and not forged.

So I would bet on Turkish origin, attempting to immitate Persian style.

donsamadhi · 1st January 2017, 04:56 PM

Dzięki wszystkim za komentarze i pozdrawiam,
Alex

Hello everybody

I see there are a few comments since I last was here. I have to say that it is unlikely that there is some using of tools type dremel. The hilt was made at the latest time 1945-1948 and it is solid information. I think there could be used some rotary tools but I doubt they were powered by electricity. The stone is rather the bowenit and for sure it isn`t an onyx.
Thank you for all comments.
Best regards.
Alex

ariel · 2nd January 2017, 03:49 PM

I think Oliver was, as usual, very polite and generous. The silvery decoration on the blade looks very "Syrian" to me. The blade /tang transition ( shoulders) are not even straight, with a gap at the point of insertion. The carvings are crude and, IMHO, made with Dremel tool. On that I am in complete accord with Marius and Battara.
My 5 cents worth is that it is a pretty crude and unprofessionally-made tourist item made somewhere in the Middle East within the past 10 years. Turkey and Syria come to mind in the very first row of candidates.

iskender · 2nd January 2017, 05:12 PM

" die hoffnung stirbt zuletzt" crude translation "hope is the last to die" iskender

donsamadhi · 3rd January 2017, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I think Oliver was, as usual, very polite and generous. The silvery decoration on the blade looks very "Syrian" to me. The blade /tang transition ( shoulders) are not even straight, with a gap at the point of insertion. The carvings are crude and, IMHO, made with Dremel tool. On that I am in complete accord with Marius and Battara.
My 5 cents worth is that it is a pretty crude and unprofessionally-made tourist item made somewhere in the Middle East within the past 10 years. Turkey and Syria come to mind in the very first row of candidates.

I wonder why you are convinced of this dremel. The subject was lying for 50 years in one of the houses. I have total confidence! I know successor, the owner has been dead for 30 years. I observe the suggestion of a little discouraging ;/

21st November 2016, 08:40 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	1. Why am I pretty sure it is not Jade (Nephrite or Jadeite)?! 1.1 Jade was and is in big demand and commands rather high prices. Therefore, it is used on valuable pieces of certain artistic value and not wasted on "tourist" items. 2. Why am I pretty sure it is Onyx?! 1.1 Onyx of precisely this coulour is found in abundance in central Anatolia and comes very cheap. 1.2 Onyx is charaterised in that it has a layered structure with parallel layers (see the photo of the horse) which can be easily identified also in the hilt (see the first three photos). Albeit I have seen pieces of up to 3 centimetres thick without any discernable layer. 3. Why am I pretty sure it was machined with a rotary tool?! 1.1 The grooves have circular cross-section and display transverse parallel traces of the rotating tool (see photos 5 and 6). 1.2 The entry/exit point of the tool is round (see last photo). But I am definitely not an expert. Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 21st November 2016 at 08:52 PM.

1st January 2017, 04:56 PM	#6
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	Happy New Year! :) Dzięki wszystkim za komentarze i pozdrawiam, Alex Hello everybody I see there are a few comments since I last was here. I have to say that it is unlikely that there is some using of tools type dremel. The hilt was made at the latest time 1945-1948 and it is solid information. I think there could be used some rotary tools but I doubt they were powered by electricity. The stone is rather the bowenit and for sure it isn`t an onyx. Thank you for all comments. Best regards. Alex

2nd January 2017, 05:12 PM	#8
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	according to a popular saying ! " die hoffnung stirbt zuletzt" crude translation "hope is the last to die" iskender

21st November 2016, 09:55 AM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Some experts call any green stone a jade, including green quartz, jadeite, etc. It depends what definition they use. "Real" jade is referred to as Nephrite, and can contain some quartz. You may see THIS LINK

22nd November 2016, 11:48 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I must also add that the motifs and style of carvings on the hilt are not typically Mughal. Closest I have seen are more related to Persian, but the quality of the carving again is not like that found in Persian ivory hilts (albeit a softer material). I must also agree with the possibility of dremel tool work looking at the micro-pictures.

23rd November 2016, 01:31 AM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	I'm also with Marius et al. - clear signs of modern tools (and low quality work, sorry). Regards, Kai

2nd January 2017, 03:49 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think Oliver was, as usual, very polite and generous. The silvery decoration on the blade looks very "Syrian" to me. The blade /tang transition ( shoulders) are not even straight, with a gap at the point of insertion. The carvings are crude and, IMHO, made with Dremel tool. On that I am in complete accord with Marius and Battara. My 5 cents worth is that it is a pretty crude and unprofessionally-made tourist item made somewhere in the Middle East within the past 10 years. Turkey and Syria come to mind in the very first row of candidates.