brief notes on a 16th century sword

mariusgmioc · 21st November 2016, 09:43 AM

I am definitely not a specialist in the field and I am rather paranoid by nature... so for me this looks like ta typical 19century "Historismus" sword.

The mere fact that it came from an old and respected collection, doesn't make it necessarily genuine. I have seen other examles where otherwise reputed myuseums were dead wrong about the age of some of the items in their collections.

PS: See for example posting #20 in the thread below:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=chicago

cornelistromp · 21st November 2016, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I am definitely not a specialist in the field and I am rather paranoid by nature... so for me this looks like ta typical 19century "Historismus" sword.

The mere fact that it came from an old and respected collection, doesn't make it necessarily genuine. I have seen other examles where otherwise reputed myuseums were dead wrong about the age of some of the items in their collections.

PS: See for example posting #20 in the thread below:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=chicago

no the provenance is never a guarantee, I studied and discussed the sword for some time now and have no doubt that the sword is 16th century.

furthermore I don't expect you to say something meaningful about the authenticity merely based on the small pictures alone.

nevertheless I welcome your opinion, even if you indicate that you are not a specialist and you have become a little paranoid.

best,
Jasper

corrado26 · 21st November 2016, 10:32 AM

As a then member of the staff of the Military Museum of Rastatt Castle I had been involved in writing the auction textes for the firearms offered at the Baden-Baden auction. So I had the opportunity to see that in the entrance hall of the Baden-Baden New Castle there have been many parts of armoures, mostly brestparts, helmets, swords and halberds which in my opinion all have been made in the 1870/80s. But as far as I know they all have been offered and sold as genuine pieces to mostly very high prices.
corrado26

cornelistromp · 21st November 2016, 10:50 AM

yes I did have some questions about some lots that I've seen there and have also seen real "gems"

which lot nrs do you mean, can you be more specific?

furthermore Please try to review the focus on the sword of post1.

best,
Jasper

corrado26 · 21st November 2016, 01:00 PM

Sorry, but this is impossible. I disposed the catalogues of this auction a long time ago on the occasion of my retirement and move to another place, so I'm not able to check the relevant lot numbers today.
corrado26

Cerjak · 21st November 2016, 04:20 PM

The later wire bound grip and the excellent condition of this sword may actually contribute to distrust about the age of this sword.
But in no way a pristine condition or the lack of signs of age or use could attest that this sword is from modern period because we don’t have any information about is origin and also his way of preservation. With pictures in low resolution ,we can only see the general shape of this sword and we could only debate on the different components on this sword.
So the first questions are :Pommel, blade , quillons are matching together? The style is correct for the period?
Jasper has bring us some evidence with all the representation in old paints that the style of the sword is correct for the period.
The second step is to try to detect any signs of modern production.
And last step who requiring:experience and knowledge : In hands , is it to try to determinate if this weapons could be an efficient ,if it is the case the probability to be a modern sword should be near to zero.
For the 2 last steps no one in this forum could contest to Jasperhis maturity of judgment.
It is a very nice broad sword that I would be happy to add in my collection, looks to me like an Oakeshott Type XX blade also in my eyes( it is only my tast ) the wire bound grip is likely to impair the beauty of this sword
Jasper ,how is the wood under the wire bound grip ,could you see it ?
best

Jean-Luc

Reventlov · 21st November 2016, 04:56 PM

I am likely guilty of sharing Marius' paranoia as well.... no need to repeat the misgivings.

I can offer one physical example that can support the possible dating - it shares some similar features vis-a-vis the form of the pommel and blade. I agree with Jean-Luc that comparisons should be sought among type XX swords.

Mark

cornelistromp · 21st November 2016, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reventlov

I am likely guilty of sharing Marius' paranoia as well.... no need to repeat the misgivings.

I can offer one physical example that can support the possible dating - it shares some similar features vis-a-vis the form of the pommel and blade. I agree with Jean-Luc that comparisons should be sought among type XX swords.

Mark

No problem, my first reaction to photos of this sword was skeptical but differs from my opinion now.

thanks for the good example of a similar type Oakeshott XX , I know the sword, it is at the moment in the Spiš Museum in Slovakia.
I know a few more examples of similar blades on 16th century swords.

@ Jean-Luc
thanks for the compliments.
actually it is not as pristine as you would expect, the surface of the blade is shiny but it has the structure and pitting that you would expect in a well-kept old blade with some nicks on the cutting edge at the blade node/approx.3/4 length.
the sandwich wooden grip is dark and old, the binding is probably redone in the 17thC.

best,
Jasper

21st November 2016, 09:43 AM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	I am definitely not a specialist in the field and I am rather paranoid by nature... so for me this looks like ta typical 19century "Historismus" sword. The mere fact that it came from an old and respected collection, doesn't make it necessarily genuine. I have seen other examles where otherwise reputed myuseums were dead wrong about the age of some of the items in their collections. PS: See for example posting #20 in the thread below: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=chicago Last edited by mariusgmioc; 21st November 2016 at 09:54 AM.

21st November 2016, 10:50 AM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	yes I did have some questions about some lots that I've seen there and have also seen real "gems" which lot nrs do you mean, can you be more specific? furthermore Please try to review the focus on the sword of post1. best, Jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 21st November 2016 at 11:10 AM.

21st November 2016, 04:56 PM	#7
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 138	I am likely guilty of sharing Marius' paranoia as well.... no need to repeat the misgivings. I can offer one physical example that can support the possible dating - it shares some similar features vis-a-vis the form of the pommel and blade. I agree with Jean-Luc that comparisons should be sought among type XX swords. Mark Attached Images Last edited by Reventlov; 21st November 2016 at 05:09 PM.

21st November 2016, 10:32 AM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	As a then member of the staff of the Military Museum of Rastatt Castle I had been involved in writing the auction textes for the firearms offered at the Baden-Baden auction. So I had the opportunity to see that in the entrance hall of the Baden-Baden New Castle there have been many parts of armoures, mostly brestparts, helmets, swords and halberds which in my opinion all have been made in the 1870/80s. But as far as I know they all have been offered and sold as genuine pieces to mostly very high prices. corrado26

21st November 2016, 01:00 PM	#5
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	Sorry, but this is impossible. I disposed the catalogues of this auction a long time ago on the occasion of my retirement and move to another place, so I'm not able to check the relevant lot numbers today. corrado26

21st November 2016, 04:20 PM	#6
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	The later wire bound grip and the excellent condition of this sword may actually contribute to distrust about the age of this sword. But in no way a pristine condition or the lack of signs of age or use could attest that this sword is from modern period because we don’t have any information about is origin and also his way of preservation. With pictures in low resolution ,we can only see the general shape of this sword and we could only debate on the different components on this sword. So the first questions are :Pommel, blade , quillons are matching together? The style is correct for the period? Jasper has bring us some evidence with all the representation in old paints that the style of the sword is correct for the period. The second step is to try to detect any signs of modern production. And last step who requiring:experience and knowledge : In hands , is it to try to determinate if this weapons could be an efficient ,if it is the case the probability to be a modern sword should be near to zero. For the 2 last steps no one in this forum could contest to Jasperhis maturity of judgment. It is a very nice broad sword that I would be happy to add in my collection, looks to me like an Oakeshott Type XX blade also in my eyes( it is only my tast ) the wire bound grip is likely to impair the beauty of this sword Jasper ,how is the wood under the wire bound grip ,could you see it ? best Jean-Luc