Indian Torador Barrel Investigation - Part III

rickystl · 19th November 2016, 07:51 PM

Hi Philip. How have you been ?

I bought this Torador intentionally to make a shooter from. It is good quality, but plain and undecorated. So it has maybe a medium collector value, if you know what I mean.

The inside of the barrels were intentionally made this way. And all Torador barrels seem to have a variation of this. If you use the Search feature, you can locate my previous Threads (Part I and II) where there is a long discussion and theories as to the reason for this interior bore design. The new steel liner and sleeve in the barrel has added weight. But that's just how it had to turn out.

I won't need a new stock. I have all the other original parts including the stock, barrel bands, and even the original ramrod. The stock just needs the fore arm repaired, and a hole bored at the back of the barrel channel to accept the new breech plug.

Here is a pic of the other parts, and a pic of what the new pan cover will look like, less the decoration. Mostly just a matter of re-assembling now. I'll post again when it's complete.

Rick

Philip · 20th November 2016, 02:47 AM

Hey Rick,
Thanks for sharing the pics. This thing's gonna look good when done! Can't wait to see what kind of shot groups you get at 50 and 100 yd.

I'll check your prior post about bores. This brings to mind, years ago in college I was writing a paper and consulted a translation of the Ming technical compendium TIANGONG KAIWU , which had an entry on guns and their manufacture. The text mentions something along the lines of the "belly" of the barrel being larger than the "mouth" which implies a bigger diameter towards the breech. The type of gun discussed was a fowling piece, so it seems that the author was describing a rudimentary application of the choke principle on shotguns, which didn't become common in the West until centuries later.

Say, are you proficient at shaping and tempering V-shaped leaf springs? I recently picked up a Chinese fowling piece with the Indo-Portuguese type snapping matchlock, and the large external spring broke long ago and was jerry-rigged during its working life -- it works beautifully but I want it restored to the original shape. The "root" of the spring is intact and in place, what's missing is the area almost out at the U-bend and going up to press on the serpentine. Can you fabricate and weld on the replacement section to match if I sent you the lock and a 1:1 scale shop drawing of the complete spring (it's made of steel)? If you can imagine the spring on a Japanese matchlock, this is exactly like that except for the material. If this sounds like something you can do, why not send me a PM and we can get in touch via email.

Tony PP · 20th November 2016, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Hey Rick,
Thanks for sharing the pics. This thing's gonna look good when done! Can't wait to see what kind of shot groups you get at 50 and 100 yd.

I'll check your prior post about bores. This brings to mind, years ago in college I was writing a paper and consulted a translation of the Ming technical compendium TIANGONG KAIWU , which had an entry on guns and their manufacture. The text mentions something along the lines of the "belly" of the barrel being larger than the "mouth" which implies a bigger diameter towards the breech. The type of gun discussed was a fowling piece, so it seems that the author was describing a rudimentary application of the choke principle on shotguns, which didn't become common in the West until centuries later.

Say, are you proficient at shaping and tempering V-shaped leaf springs? I recently picked up a Chinese fowling piece with the Indo-Portuguese type snapping matchlock, and the large external spring broke long ago and was jerry-rigged during its working life -- it works beautifully but I want it restored to the original shape. The "root" of the spring is intact and in place, what's missing is the area almost out at the U-bend and going up to press on the serpentine. Can you fabricate and weld on the replacement section to match if I sent you the lock and a 1:1 scale shop drawing of the complete spring (it's made of steel)? If you can imagine the spring on a Japanese matchlock, this is exactly like that except for the material. If this sounds like something you can do, why not send me a PM and we can get in touch via email.

Hello Philip, I have tried several times over the years to weld broken springs with very limited success. I think trying to weld new to old would have even less chance of working. Perhaps it is possible but for me I prefer to make a new spring.

rickystl · 20th November 2016, 04:33 PM

Hi Philip.

If "I" tried to make a mainspring, I would just end up with a glob of metal LOL.
My gunsmith does all this type of work, making springs, etc.
Tony is right. I've never seen welding one piece to another turn out well. You end up with two different spring tempers. Better to have a complete new spring made. And that you have the basic "root" of the spring, and a detail of what it's supposed to look like, makes the job much easier. The "spring" in the temper for a snapping matchlock would be much lighter than the spring for a flintlock or percussion weapon.
I'll send you a PM with a couple ideas.

Rick

19th November 2016, 07:51 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Philip. How have you been ? I bought this Torador intentionally to make a shooter from. It is good quality, but plain and undecorated. So it has maybe a medium collector value, if you know what I mean. The inside of the barrels were intentionally made this way. And all Torador barrels seem to have a variation of this. If you use the Search feature, you can locate my previous Threads (Part I and II) where there is a long discussion and theories as to the reason for this interior bore design. The new steel liner and sleeve in the barrel has added weight. But that's just how it had to turn out. I won't need a new stock. I have all the other original parts including the stock, barrel bands, and even the original ramrod. The stock just needs the fore arm repaired, and a hole bored at the back of the barrel channel to accept the new breech plug. Here is a pic of the other parts, and a pic of what the new pan cover will look like, less the decoration. Mostly just a matter of re-assembling now. I'll post again when it's complete. Rick Attached Images

20th November 2016, 02:47 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Hey Rick, Thanks for sharing the pics. This thing's gonna look good when done! Can't wait to see what kind of shot groups you get at 50 and 100 yd. I'll check your prior post about bores. This brings to mind, years ago in college I was writing a paper and consulted a translation of the Ming technical compendium TIANGONG KAIWU , which had an entry on guns and their manufacture. The text mentions something along the lines of the "belly" of the barrel being larger than the "mouth" which implies a bigger diameter towards the breech. The type of gun discussed was a fowling piece, so it seems that the author was describing a rudimentary application of the choke principle on shotguns, which didn't become common in the West until centuries later. Say, are you proficient at shaping and tempering V-shaped leaf springs? I recently picked up a Chinese fowling piece with the Indo-Portuguese type snapping matchlock, and the large external spring broke long ago and was jerry-rigged during its working life -- it works beautifully but I want it restored to the original shape. The "root" of the spring is intact and in place, what's missing is the area almost out at the U-bend and going up to press on the serpentine. Can you fabricate and weld on the replacement section to match if I sent you the lock and a 1:1 scale shop drawing of the complete spring (it's made of steel)? If you can imagine the spring on a Japanese matchlock, this is exactly like that except for the material. If this sounds like something you can do, why not send me a PM and we can get in touch via email.

20th November 2016, 04:33 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Philip. If "I" tried to make a mainspring, I would just end up with a glob of metal LOL. My gunsmith does all this type of work, making springs, etc. Tony is right. I've never seen welding one piece to another turn out well. You end up with two different spring tempers. Better to have a complete new spring made. And that you have the basic "root" of the spring, and a detail of what it's supposed to look like, makes the job much easier. The "spring" in the temper for a snapping matchlock would be much lighter than the spring for a flintlock or percussion weapon. I'll send you a PM with a couple ideas. Rick