A cup hilt rapier for id.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Or just slender (say slim), that not necessarily smaller; something also (or more) plausible .

Indeed, the idea of an entire pattern of sword hilt adapted en masse to accommodate an entire ethnic group seems patently implausible, however that circumstance is noted in references on British military swords as I mentioned (I believe it was "British Military Swords" by Robson).

As well noted by Philip, this cup hilt does seem to have been afforded some custom or commissioned attention, and the undulating (flamberge) blade something of a novelty. While notably speculative, I would suggest that these kinds of blades are typically regarded as more of a parade or ceremonial type feature, and that such blades are recorded in various Biblical instances, in guarding the 'Gates of Paradise'. This is sometimes associated with Masonic regalia such as the 'Tylers' sword which is often recorded as 'a wavy blade'.
Just a suggestion OK. Many Spanish military orders of course employed these kinds of symbolism.

[fernando]

As i recently came across with an example in a local fellow collector and will also refer the collection where the above posted sword came from, waving blades in cup hilts (and sail hilts) are not so uncommon; and with the same typical inscriptions as those straight ones: IN MENE, IN SOLINGEN, PUGNO PRO PATRIA, CROSS AND ORB symbol; even some of them rather lenghty, so in line with the same operational attitude.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Indeed, the idea of an entire pattern of sword hilt adapted en masse to accommodate an entire ethnic group seems patently implausible, however that circumstance is noted in references on British military swords as I mentioned (I believe it was "British Military Swords" by Robson)...

For what it is worth, this aspect is also approached by Rainer Daehnhardt in his written works, where he mentions that Portuguese could not hold Indian talwars, due to their short grip.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

For what it is worth, this aspect is also approached by Rainer Daehnhardt in his written works, where he mentions that Portuguese could not hold Indian talwars, due to their short grip.

The references from Mr. Daehnhardt are highly important in my opinion, and worth a great deal. Thank you Fernando.

[fernando]

Here Jim,
This may not have anything ... or everything to do it.
Tirri depicting a talwar with a hilt having its pommel removed to accomodate a 'larger' hand. Larger than what ?

.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Here Jim,
This may not have anything ... or everything to do it.
Tirri depicting a talwar with a hilt having its pommel removed to accomodate a 'larger' hand. Larger than what ?

.

Of course......Tirri!!!
To add to the conjecture on the Indian hilt/hand size conundrum:

Notes from Burton, and other cited in "Hindu Arms & Ritual" 2004, Elgood, footnote #85 (p.297);
"...the personal weapons of Sivaji were preserved at Satara and Kolhapur after his death in 1680. Grant Duff in "Notes of an Indian Journey" (1876) described the worship of the Bhawani at Satara as did Burton in 'Sword' (1884) who recorded a Genoa blade of great length and fine temper though it is not clear whether he saw it himself.
He cites a Mrs Guthrie who did see it, saying it was a fine Ferrara blade, four feet in length, with a spike upon the hilt to thrust with'.
She also noticed THE SMALLNESS OF THE GRIP.

It seems there are no real sound answers on this, and while the notion of physical hand size being a factor in grip size, there is not a consensus as to how consistant such instances might apply. I have seen a tulwar from the Northwest Frontier which has provenance it was used in this manner, with no disc. It was captured by a British officer in 1930 from an Afghan warrior, and was among his other memento's shown to me when I interviewed him in the 90s.
It was said in other research on Afghan weapons, that the physical stature of tribesmen of these regions, was typically larger than that of the Hindu's to the south. This was not documented but in personal communications.

Thank you for the follow up Fernando.

Jim

[werecow]

I thought I'd add a data point to this thread in the form of this rapier I recently came across on a Spanish collector's site with a similar thumb ring.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by fernando

Tirri depicting a talwar with a hilt having its pommel removed to accomodate a 'larger' hand. Larger than what ?

Sorry for necrotizing this old post. I hope I am not being too remedial by stating that removing the pommel would also allow for more wrist movement and reach. Tulwar hilts to me feel like they are designed for cutting are distances very close to user. Operating like giant butcher knives at distances around 24", 60 cm vs a Portuguese rapier blade that likes distances closer to 36", 90cm or more.

[Interested Party]

Here is an explanation of gripping a tulwar hilt. 1:30-1:48 https://youtu.be/hjkj6Umgjs8?t=90


Is this the gospel or an apologist? I will let you all decide

PS 2:20-2:26 shows the arc of a tulwar cut.