Carved ivory handles on Indian edged weapons

Jens Nordlunde · 19th November 2016, 04:26 PM

Welcome to the forum Likhari, and thank you for your kind words.

Like Marius mendtions, it would be nice to see, not only details of your weapons, but the whole weapons as well. I fact there is a rule on the forum, that no details should be discussed, before the whole weapon have been shown.
I know the rule is not always followed, but I think it is a good rule.

I have only one dagger with an ivory hilt, with an animal head, and the blade is not Indian, but more likely South Asian. See catalogue pp. 61-62 for further informations.

Likhari · 19th November 2016, 06:30 PM

The two horse handle belongs to a sword in the Prince of Wales Museum in Bombay photographed by Moin.

What is very interesting about this sword is the fact that it combines an iconographic representation of Nandaka (The Hindu God Vishnu) on the handle with an etching of what looks like the Ayatul Kursi in Arabic on the blade. Possibly a reuse of the blade but all the same it does show the composite culture of the Indian Subcontinent and represents exactly what makes the study of Arms and Armour so fascinating to me.

Jens Nordlunde · 19th November 2016, 09:15 PM

Yes it is interesting, but from where does the museum says it origins, and how old do they think it is?

You see, here on the forum we are all 'pupils', all of us try to learn something from each other, so it is important that all information's are told, or it would leed to very long discussions.

So please 'paint' it all out in details.

Jens

Likhari · 20th November 2016, 07:33 AM

Have you ever been inside an Indian museum Jens ? If you had been you would know that the provenance and period is not usually available for arms at such institutions.

I have painted the best picture I could with my meagre intelligence. Maybe with your abundant knowledge you can add something to the painting.

Likhari · 20th November 2016, 04:46 PM

The tiger head motif was quite popular on Indian weapons and had a special significance for Tipu Sultan. Here we have a carved ivory tulwar handle from Sotheby's with a tiger head on the pommel and also on the quillon tips

Jens Nordlunde · 20th November 2016, 08:56 PM

Likhari,
No I have never visited an Indian museum, and I have never been to India.
I have visited many other places, also in the far east, so in a way it is strange that I have chosen to collect Indian weapons, but there are other reasons for why I, almost fifty years ago started to collect Indian weapons.

It is a pity the museums does not give more information's about the exhibited items, as they should have first hand information's - one would think - although I do know that is it not always so.
Jens

Likhari · 22nd November 2016, 12:32 AM

Here is the complete sword for you Marius and Jens !

It is a thorough bastard that was put together probably for a British cavalry officer. The blade is wootz and possible 17th or 18th century. The handle is Indian carved ivory from the early 19th century and the guard is from the British Pattern 1796 Light Cavalry Sabre.

A dragoon or hussar office posted in India probably wanted to use a blade that he got as war booty and he had a local craftsman fashion it into a sword that he could wear as part of his uniform. Pure conjecture but it makes for a good story !!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th November 2016, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Likhari

Here is the complete sword for you Marius and Jens !

It is a thorough bastard that was put together probably for a British cavalry officer. The blade is wootz and possible 17th or 18th century. The handle is Indian carved ivory from the early 19th century and the guard is from the British Pattern 1796 Light Cavalry Sabre.

A dragoon or hussar office posted in India probably wanted to use a blade that he got as war booty and he had a local craftsman fashion it into a sword that he could wear as part of his uniform. Pure conjecture but it makes for a good story !!

Clearly it was occasionally the done thing to have a sword commissioned ...Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21674 and at #5 an example of a Wilkinson Hybrid style for the British/Indian Market see also Wilkinson marks on that thread. These appear as Ethiopian form.

Jim McDougall · 22nd November 2016, 02:20 AM

Likhari.
I would like to join in welcoming you to the forum, and thank you for the kind compliments! I am honored to be included with those others you named and we are among many others here who also generously contribute to the enlightenments here.
As Jens has noted, we are all students in our shared fields of study, and here we continue to learn together.

This is a wonderful topic, and you have shared some great examples.
In the initial post, the second photo is an intriguing sword which seems to clearly reflect a British military officers gestalt. The hilt recalls the stirrup hilt forms of M1796 period, with a beautiful custom grip. The koftgari band on the blade is similar to an example I had some time ago.
It was a solid steel Persian style tulwar hilt (shamshir) but with the langets and quillon terminals of the Indo-Persian tulwar hilt.
The blade was that of a British M1788 light cavalry sabre, which had clearly been rehilted and a koftgari panel added at the forte.

These kinds of hybrids seem to have flourished in Deccani regions post Seringapatam and the opening years of the 19th century, and it would seem that perhaps this sword in your photos is another .

The carved ivory dual 'hayamukhi' (horseheads) is most unusual and amazing, and with the forte panel of Islamic script, this blade appears to be one of the well known Persian trade blades of first quarter to mid 19th c.

The carved tulwar hilt in ivory of Indo-Persian style has an interesting blade with all visible the diapered pattern forte.

I think there is so much to be learned from Indian weapons, as they are so deeply imbued with the cultures, religions and traditions of this most fascinating subcontinent. I am very grateful to have you join us here!!

Jim

rand · 22nd November 2016, 01:18 PM

Likhari,

You have a very nice sword that is also in great condition. Have you pondered removing the shellack from the ivory, it could make a very dramatic difference. Have had two pieces in the past that were covered with shellack, coincidently both were from india. And both looked much better after the shellack was taken off.

Also would like to comment on the scabbard. Would think the officer who commissioned this would have had a scabbard with a double hanger in the British 1822 style. Also believe judging from the quality of the sword its scabbard would have been of a higher dress quality equal to the sword.

Really like your sword, the well carved ivory handle along with nicely etched wootz blade topped off with the gold koftgari is a win, win,win.

rand

19th November 2016, 04:26 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Welcome to the forum Likhari, and thank you for your kind words. Like Marius mendtions, it would be nice to see, not only details of your weapons, but the whole weapons as well. I fact there is a rule on the forum, that no details should be discussed, before the whole weapon have been shown. I know the rule is not always followed, but I think it is a good rule. I have only one dagger with an ivory hilt, with an animal head, and the blade is not Indian, but more likely South Asian. See catalogue pp. 61-62 for further informations. Attached Images

19th November 2016, 06:30 PM	#2
Likhari Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: USA Posts: 34	The two horse handle belongs to a sword in the Prince of Wales Museum in Bombay photographed by Moin. What is very interesting about this sword is the fact that it combines an iconographic representation of Nandaka (The Hindu God Vishnu) on the handle with an etching of what looks like the Ayatul Kursi in Arabic on the blade. Possibly a reuse of the blade but all the same it does show the composite culture of the Indian Subcontinent and represents exactly what makes the study of Arms and Armour so fascinating to me. Attached Images

22nd November 2016, 12:32 AM	#7
Likhari Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: USA Posts: 34	Here is the complete sword for you Marius and Jens ! It is a thorough bastard that was put together probably for a British cavalry officer. The blade is wootz and possible 17th or 18th century. The handle is Indian carved ivory from the early 19th century and the guard is from the British Pattern 1796 Light Cavalry Sabre. A dragoon or hussar office posted in India probably wanted to use a blade that he got as war booty and he had a local craftsman fashion it into a sword that he could wear as part of his uniform. Pure conjecture but it makes for a good story !! Attached Images

22nd November 2016, 01:18 PM	#10
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	sword Likhari, You have a very nice sword that is also in great condition. Have you pondered removing the shellack from the ivory, it could make a very dramatic difference. Have had two pieces in the past that were covered with shellack, coincidently both were from india. And both looked much better after the shellack was taken off. Also would like to comment on the scabbard. Would think the officer who commissioned this would have had a scabbard with a double hanger in the British 1822 style. Also believe judging from the quality of the sword its scabbard would have been of a higher dress quality equal to the sword. Really like your sword, the well carved ivory handle along with nicely etched wootz blade topped off with the gold koftgari is a win, win,win. rand

19th November 2016, 09:15 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes it is interesting, but from where does the museum says it origins, and how old do they think it is? You see, here on the forum we are all 'pupils', all of us try to learn something from each other, so it is important that all information's are told, or it would leed to very long discussions. So please 'paint' it all out in details. Jens

20th November 2016, 07:33 AM	#4
Likhari Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: USA Posts: 34	Have you ever been inside an Indian museum Jens ? If you had been you would know that the provenance and period is not usually available for arms at such institutions. I have painted the best picture I could with my meagre intelligence. Maybe with your abundant knowledge you can add something to the painting.

20th November 2016, 04:46 PM	#5
Likhari Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: USA Posts: 34	The tiger head motif was quite popular on Indian weapons and had a special significance for Tipu Sultan. Here we have a carved ivory tulwar handle from Sotheby's with a tiger head on the pommel and also on the quillon tips Attached Images

20th November 2016, 08:56 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Likhari, No I have never visited an Indian museum, and I have never been to India. I have visited many other places, also in the far east, so in a way it is strange that I have chosen to collect Indian weapons, but there are other reasons for why I, almost fifty years ago started to collect Indian weapons. It is a pity the museums does not give more information's about the exhibited items, as they should have first hand information's - one would think - although I do know that is it not always so. Jens

22nd November 2016, 02:20 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Likhari. I would like to join in welcoming you to the forum, and thank you for the kind compliments! I am honored to be included with those others you named and we are among many others here who also generously contribute to the enlightenments here. As Jens has noted, we are all students in our shared fields of study, and here we continue to learn together. This is a wonderful topic, and you have shared some great examples. In the initial post, the second photo is an intriguing sword which seems to clearly reflect a British military officers gestalt. The hilt recalls the stirrup hilt forms of M1796 period, with a beautiful custom grip. The koftgari band on the blade is similar to an example I had some time ago. It was a solid steel Persian style tulwar hilt (shamshir) but with the langets and quillon terminals of the Indo-Persian tulwar hilt. The blade was that of a British M1788 light cavalry sabre, which had clearly been rehilted and a koftgari panel added at the forte. These kinds of hybrids seem to have flourished in Deccani regions post Seringapatam and the opening years of the 19th century, and it would seem that perhaps this sword in your photos is another . The carved ivory dual 'hayamukhi' (horseheads) is most unusual and amazing, and with the forte panel of Islamic script, this blade appears to be one of the well known Persian trade blades of first quarter to mid 19th c. The carved tulwar hilt in ivory of Indo-Persian style has an interesting blade with all visible the diapered pattern forte. I think there is so much to be learned from Indian weapons, as they are so deeply imbued with the cultures, religions and traditions of this most fascinating subcontinent. I am very grateful to have you join us here!! Jim