Marks on Walloon sword for id.

[cornelistromp]

@Jean Luc, what is written in the fuller.... Sahagun?

@Jim
It is possible mowbray refers to Dutch because Sahagun and other spellings of it occur on these wallone swords, nevertheless they are made in Germany.

[Cerjak]

jasper,

Yes with good eyes no doubt it's Sahagun !
I will pm you the hd pictures.Thank you Japer you made a complete analysis for this sword .We even have the original draw !
Best
Jean-Luc

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

@Jean Luc, what is written in the fuller.... Sahagun?

@Jim
It is possible mowbray refers to Dutch because Sahagun and other spellings of it occur on these wallone swords, nevertheless they are made in Germany.

Actually Jasper, as I have continued searching throughout the morning here for hours now, I think that is exactly right! Most other sources and reading have consistently stated these were made in Germany FOR the Dutch.
Even when the French finally adopted these 'Walloon' swords into their M1679 regulation patterns, they were acquiring them THROUGH the Amsterdam arms brokers who had them from Solingen.

I found some detail suggesting that the 'kleeblatt' (clover leaf or quatrefoil) on the quillon may have been placed by the French as swords being sent to their allies in campaigns of latter 17th c. but it seems that it was indeed placed in Amsterdam.

It does seem consistant to me that the SAHAGUM on the blade is very much Dutch, which makes sense as Spanish quality must have been firmly established in the Netherlands during Spanish rule. However it seems a paradox as the Dutch detested 'Papal' rule.

It is amazing how much history is learned with these faithful old swords as our guides!!!

PS I found the page you attached in the Leger Museum article, thank you again for including it before.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

PS I found the page you attached in the Leger Museum article, thank you again for including it before.

i took it from JP Puype -blanke wapens p 47, the original drawing is from Michel petard.


best,
jasper

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

i took it from JP Puype -blanke wapens p 47, the original drawing is from Michel petard.


best,
jasper

Thank you Jasper, much appreciated.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Not knowing a lot about these swords I have to say what a great thread this is. The knowledge displayed by Forum on this subject is very much respected. Thank you for the fine detail and a superb thread. I ran into another example at http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/coll...e/? irn=249330 and at http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13795 I was particularly interested in the play with numbers noted by Jim and on another thread on Forum at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=walloon and further detail at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=walloon

My question is ...Since SAHAGUN appears to be a Spanish sword making family name ~ Has the name been copied onto Solingen swords as a measure of quality...like Andrea Ferrera etc...?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[werecow]

The 1414 is of course a palindrome with talismanically 'lucky' numbers along with the omnipresent 'running wolf'. While of course suggesting Solingen, where these were commonly on blades, it is interesting that they are combined with the TO mark and as noted, associated in English context as described in Mowbray .

Could this be a reference to Exodus 14:14?

"The Lord will fight for you; you need only to be still."

[Triarii]

That's a good idea. I've often read that they're cabalistic numbers, but with no explanation as to why *those* particular numbers were chosen. I like that suggestion.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by werecow

Could this be a reference to Exodus 14:14?

"The Lord will fight for you; you need only to be still."

Quite possibly. I first encountered the idea that these numbers could refer to bible verses in a museum in Northern Sweden, and find it plausible. Not sure why the colon doesn’t appear though. Bible verses were familiar with most in the Protestant Northern Europe (including Amsterdam) and a reference like that would have been understood at the time.

It could also refer to John 14:14: ”12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.”