Pala Kilic Wootz? with European Hilt.

Norman McCormick · 11th November 2016, 09:24 PM

Hi Mariusgmioc,
I'm still not absolutely sure either.!!! The history of animosity between these two empires is well documented and I still find it difficult to reconcile an Austrian officer sporting an Austrian made Ottoman style blade.

My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 12th November 2016, 06:41 PM

Hi All,
I have reread the correspondence from my reputable source and it is clear that they are sure that this is an Austrian made blade, probably mid 18thC, as apparently this emulation of Ottoman blade profile and decoration was in vogue at this time. I'm also happy to say that the type is not at all common and I suspect this rarity of form has been a big stumbling block in properly identifying this sword. Thanks once again to all who participated in this most interesting discussion.
Regards,
Norman.

Cathey · 12th March 2020, 03:52 AM

Hi Guys

I originally posted this sword on the Ethnographic Weapons page of Vikingsword Forum, as the previous owner had it marked down as a Turkish Generals Sword. Thanks to assistance from this posting we have now settled on the sword being western European with pseudo ottoman script.

Now that I have had more time to review this sword I can also provide a better description:
Western European Officer’ Mameluke. Hilt has an all in one brass backstrap and Pistol shaped pommel (without the usual hole in the pommel). Brass Ferrule with corded central decoration. Brass cross guard with Chain Guard. Grip decoratively carved bone. Curved single edged flat blade with shallow (9 ½” 24 cm) clip back point. Blade has a small decorative panel on each side containing pseudo ottoman script. Plain steel scabbard with two throat screws and two steel bands with hangers.

The swords dimensions are:
Overall Length: In Scabbard 35 ¼” 89.6 cm, sword only 34 1/8” 86.7 cm
Blade length: 28 ¼” 71.8 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ¼” 3.2 cm
Hilt widest point: 5 ¾” 14.5 cm
Inside grip length: 4” 10.1 cm

I am still trying to identify whether the sword is Hungarian, French or English. I have been unable to find another example with this unusual style pf Pistol pommel/grip. On a previous post I did find a reference stating that “After the French expedition in Egypt, Western Europeans (mainly French & British) started to produce the "sabres a l'orientale", just copies of Islamic / Ottoman kilij with pistol grip. But the marks and decorations on the blades were purely Europeans”. Which certainly would seem to fit with this sword.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Kubur · 12th March 2020, 08:30 AM

Yes Cathey, this is the right place for your sword.

Then I won't be able to say if your sword is Austrian or Hungarian, but for sure it is from Central Europe.

This Sword is not French at all and probably not Western European.

12th March 2020, 03:52 AM	#3
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Western European Mameluke Officer's Sword Hi Guys I originally posted this sword on the Ethnographic Weapons page of Vikingsword Forum, as the previous owner had it marked down as a Turkish Generals Sword. Thanks to assistance from this posting we have now settled on the sword being western European with pseudo ottoman script. Now that I have had more time to review this sword I can also provide a better description: Western European Officer’ Mameluke. Hilt has an all in one brass backstrap and Pistol shaped pommel (without the usual hole in the pommel). Brass Ferrule with corded central decoration. Brass cross guard with Chain Guard. Grip decoratively carved bone. Curved single edged flat blade with shallow (9 ½” 24 cm) clip back point. Blade has a small decorative panel on each side containing pseudo ottoman script. Plain steel scabbard with two throat screws and two steel bands with hangers. The swords dimensions are: Overall Length: In Scabbard 35 ¼” 89.6 cm, sword only 34 1/8” 86.7 cm Blade length: 28 ¼” 71.8 cm Blade widest point: 1 ¼” 3.2 cm Hilt widest point: 5 ¾” 14.5 cm Inside grip length: 4” 10.1 cm I am still trying to identify whether the sword is Hungarian, French or English. I have been unable to find another example with this unusual style pf Pistol pommel/grip. On a previous post I did find a reference stating that “After the French expedition in Egypt, Western Europeans (mainly French & British) started to produce the "sabres a l'orientale", just copies of Islamic / Ottoman kilij with pistol grip. But the marks and decorations on the blades were purely Europeans”. Which certainly would seem to fit with this sword. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

11th November 2016, 09:24 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Mariusgmioc, I'm still not absolutely sure either.!!! The history of animosity between these two empires is well documented and I still find it difficult to reconcile an Austrian officer sporting an Austrian made Ottoman style blade. My Regards, Norman.

12th November 2016, 06:41 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi All, I have reread the correspondence from my reputable source and it is clear that they are sure that this is an Austrian made blade, probably mid 18thC, as apparently this emulation of Ottoman blade profile and decoration was in vogue at this time. I'm also happy to say that the type is not at all common and I suspect this rarity of form has been a big stumbling block in properly identifying this sword. Thanks once again to all who participated in this most interesting discussion. Regards, Norman.

12th March 2020, 08:30 AM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Yes Cathey, this is the right place for your sword. Then I won't be able to say if your sword is Austrian or Hungarian, but for sure it is from Central Europe. This Sword is not French at all and probably not Western European.