help with identity & origin

Valjhun · 21st February 2006, 09:14 PM

I have exactly the same opinion as thatone ( btw almost the same), or a lot of other similar pieces: Bosnia-Montenegro 19th century piece. I do not like the scabbard too, thou. That star maybe indicates that the owner was a jew, if that's the case it is more Bosnia than Montenegro.

erlikhan · 21st February 2006, 10:46 PM

The koftgari on the blade is original. David's star is original too and was always used by Ottomans and perhaps other Muslims of the period as a talisman.Was prefered by pirates and any kind of warriors for good fortune and wealth. The hilt is original with copper bands/corals (or coral imitating red glass beads??). The white metal scabbard is later but hard to decide if a simple period restoration or a modern one. The chiselling with the tulip drawing is pure Turkish according to me . Such simple decoration is often seen on not expensive antique samples as well. Nice. I wish the seller knew English or tried to market it internationally

mavi1970 · 22nd February 2006, 03:44 AM

i took a few more pictures of this sword, but again with my digital camera, its the best i can do. and the indentations of the "eye lashes" as they are called are deep 1 - 2.5 mm, including the 6 dots , 3 per side of the lashes.

eftihis · 22nd February 2006, 03:04 PM

Hallo friends,
I am posting photos of a Greek knife i have, which has etched the exact same symbols on blade. It is dated 1906, and have the name in Greek of the owner or manufacturer (Papadimitriou) Maybe this design is not exclusively Greek, but can be an indication that the blade is from Greece. Regarding the brass work i do not think is cast, it looks more than embossed to me, and also there is damage in the mouth of the scabbard, i do n ot think that somebody would damage a reproduction to be more persuasive.
The brass work reminds me Albanian Rat tail pistols as Ham says, but again we speak about an era and place that people, traders and craftsmen mooved arround, and also borders of ethnicities were not so much defined.

Regarding the Solomon star on the other yataghan, it is purely talismanic, for good luck, and this belief is not among muslims only. In an unpublishe book of Pavlos Vlastos, (a great Cretan folklorist -laograph we say), i read in the chapter about "spells and protective magic talisman of Crete" that this symbol is for "good luck" and another variation for "protect you against weapons"!!! Then it is obvious why it exists in so many yataghans, it is to protect you from the weapon of the oponent, and if you notice you will see that most times is in the external side of the blade, the one tat the opponent would face if you have the swordon your right hand.
Regards to all!

Dom · 25th February 2006, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

I am posting photos of a Greek knife i have, which has etched the exact same symbols on blade. It is dated 1906, and have the name in Greek of the owner or manufacturer (Papadimitriou) ..snip..

step by step here we are

as I suggest it, the decor is not in accordance with origine; Muslim countries
I extract the 2 principal part of decor
- 1 style flower with 6 petals
- 1 webbed or Byzantine cross
it last decoration, I repeat myself

is not easy for a good Moslem to associate a croos decor on a blade carried by him, but by a Greek no problem

the Greek Moslems are rarer than one Turkish Christian

in Sofia mosque (St Sophia) in the marble was engraved exactly the same type of crosses,
all must of them have been erased when the church became a mosque

à +

Dom

Tim Simmons · 25th February 2006, 10:38 AM

I do not know anything about this except the eared handle grips have been cast and although the picture is not that clear, most probably from wax originals. Tim

ariel · 25th February 2006, 03:49 PM

Going back to the origial Yataghan in this discussion thread: here is another one just like that.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Straight-Bl...QQcmdZViewItem

Any food for thought? Personally, I do not believe it is a modern replacement just something we do not know much about.....

Dom · 25th February 2006, 04:47 PM

you are right Ariel, old weapon, but that no embellishment may be posterior comes to disturb the identification

the stamping of the other blade is certainly recent, without relationship to its origin, and is creating us a trouble

à +

Dom

mavi1970 · 25th February 2006, 05:30 PM

I jsut looked at the sword that ended and that was noticed as being similair, the ears of that yataghan have the brass work covering probably either metal or something else (plated brass), it is evident with the center rib where the brass plating has cracked and the thickness is seen. Whereas the one I have the ears are actually cast brass, and two full peices one for either ear, then the center has a black spacer of either bone or wood, then the actual blade extension. So its quite different manufactures. It is very confusing now to actually place an origin, but i think as discussed it might be christian, maybe greek-ottoman, so a very rare peice indeed. thanks for your help. this is such a nice site to discuss items people own and collect. keep up the good work.

eftihis · 27th February 2006, 10:17 PM

Hi,
I am posting photos of a long straight yataghan dagger, which has a brass scabbard. But the decoration here is engraved. I believe that it is from North Greece or at least Balkan area. All these examples we saw are connected ithink.

mavi1970 · 28th February 2006, 01:10 AM

similair in materials used, but still the one I have is greatly different in style, and I haven't seen anything close to it anywhere.

21st February 2006, 09:14 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I have exactly the same opinion as thatone ( btw almost the same), or a lot of other similar pieces: Bosnia-Montenegro 19th century piece. I do not like the scabbard too, thou. That star maybe indicates that the owner was a jew, if that's the case it is more Bosnia than Montenegro. Attached Images Last edited by Valjhun; 21st February 2006 at 10:24 PM.

22nd February 2006, 03:44 AM	#3
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	i took a few more pictures of this sword, but again with my digital camera, its the best i can do. and the indentations of the "eye lashes" as they are called are deep 1 - 2.5 mm, including the 6 dots , 3 per side of the lashes. Attached Images

22nd February 2006, 03:04 PM	#4
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Maybe is Greek! Hallo friends, I am posting photos of a Greek knife i have, which has etched the exact same symbols on blade. It is dated 1906, and have the name in Greek of the owner or manufacturer (Papadimitriou) Maybe this design is not exclusively Greek, but can be an indication that the blade is from Greece. Regarding the brass work i do not think is cast, it looks more than embossed to me, and also there is damage in the mouth of the scabbard, i do n ot think that somebody would damage a reproduction to be more persuasive. The brass work reminds me Albanian Rat tail pistols as Ham says, but again we speak about an era and place that people, traders and craftsmen mooved arround, and also borders of ethnicities were not so much defined. Regarding the Solomon star on the other yataghan, it is purely talismanic, for good luck, and this belief is not among muslims only. In an unpublishe book of Pavlos Vlastos, (a great Cretan folklorist -laograph we say), i read in the chapter about "spells and protective magic talisman of Crete" that this symbol is for "good luck" and another variation for "protect you against weapons"!!! Then it is obvious why it exists in so many yataghans, it is to protect you from the weapon of the oponent, and if you notice you will see that most times is in the external side of the blade, the one tat the opponent would face if you have the swordon your right hand. Regards to all! Attached Images

27th February 2006, 10:17 PM	#10
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Hi, I am posting photos of a long straight yataghan dagger, which has a brass scabbard. But the decoration here is engraved. I believe that it is from North Greece or at least Balkan area. All these examples we saw are connected ithink. Attached Images Last edited by eftihis; 27th February 2006 at 10:42 PM.

21st February 2006, 10:46 PM	#2
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	The koftgari on the blade is original. David's star is original too and was always used by Ottomans and perhaps other Muslims of the period as a talisman.Was prefered by pirates and any kind of warriors for good fortune and wealth. The hilt is original with copper bands/corals (or coral imitating red glass beads??). The white metal scabbard is later but hard to decide if a simple period restoration or a modern one. The chiselling with the tulip drawing is pure Turkish according to me . Such simple decoration is often seen on not expensive antique samples as well. Nice. I wish the seller knew English or tried to market it internationally

25th February 2006, 10:38 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I do not know anything about this except the eared handle grips have been cast and although the picture is not that clear, most probably from wax originals. Tim

25th February 2006, 03:49 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Going back to the origial Yataghan in this discussion thread: here is another one just like that. http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Straight-Bl...QQcmdZViewItem Any food for thought? Personally, I do not believe it is a modern replacement just something we do not know much about.....

25th February 2006, 04:47 PM	#8
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	you are right Ariel, old weapon, but that no embellishment may be posterior comes to disturb the identification the stamping of the other blade is certainly recent, without relationship to its origin, and is creating us a trouble à + Dom

25th February 2006, 05:30 PM	#9
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	I jsut looked at the sword that ended and that was noticed as being similair, the ears of that yataghan have the brass work covering probably either metal or something else (plated brass), it is evident with the center rib where the brass plating has cracked and the thickness is seen. Whereas the one I have the ears are actually cast brass, and two full peices one for either ear, then the center has a black spacer of either bone or wood, then the actual blade extension. So its quite different manufactures. It is very confusing now to actually place an origin, but i think as discussed it might be christian, maybe greek-ottoman, so a very rare peice indeed. thanks for your help. this is such a nice site to discuss items people own and collect. keep up the good work.

28th February 2006, 01:10 AM	#11
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	similair in materials used, but still the one I have is greatly different in style, and I haven't seen anything close to it anywhere.