Yataghans:bibliography and identification

Kubur · 7th November 2016, 01:12 PM

Your Yataghans smell something like Sarajevo... at least for the hilt...

Kubur · 7th November 2016, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Your Yataghans smell something like Sarajevo... at least for the hilt...

The ref. of my friend Jersey man

ariel · 7th November 2016, 04:26 PM

Try "Yatagani" by Gozde Yasar. Collection of Askeri Muze in Istanbul.

Jim McDougall · 7th November 2016, 06:44 PM

Mankova, thank you for visiting us here, and for the interesting query on yataghans. You have chosen a fascinating and challenging topic for your thesis, and as the very knowledgeable members here furnish titles and suggestions, I hope you might say more on the nature or scope of your intended study.

The history and development of the yataghan is somewhat complex due to its diversity and diffusion into various regions and throughout the Ottoman Empire. I must admit that classifying and identifying these is, at least for me, a daunting task.

The titles recommended so far here are great suggestions and I look forward to seeing an even more comprehensive bibliography develop. I hope we might also develop some discussion regarding the classifications and characteristics of many of the established regional types.

mankova · 7th November 2016, 10:46 PM

Big thanks for You all

I will try to find a compromise between theory and practice. I mean I want to do a proper restoration with good theoretical base about the object. I'm not an art and weaponry historian, but for my objects I must know their origin and general history. Being here and reading fascinating informations and a lot of posts full of passion, cause thirst of knowledge in me

As Mr Jim McDougall noticed, it's not an easy field to research, because of its diversity. And with not enough bibliography in my country (for ordinary person like me to read in 5 languages may be hard, as far as i will find those publications i want

). Nevertheless it's worth to try

I was searching some resemblence in Turetskoe Oruzhie and on the blade of one yataghan. What do you think, may I be right?

Monika

mankova · 7th November 2016, 11:17 PM

Of course on the picture supposed to be Muhammad, not Muhhamad.

Mr Jens Nordlunde, I saw Mrs Feurbach here on forum, and also found her facebook page about Yataghans

I think about writing to her, but at this moment my brain is gonna explode because of so many information in extraordinary languages :P

I may say that i did some lab tests, and I found out that:

1st yataghan (bigger, with complete hilt): the "golden" letters, and rivets are made in brass, and the floral ornament at the hilt is silver.

2nd yataghan (incomplete hilt): letters are silver (oxidised to black), hilt has coral of course, brass rivets, and copper "ribbon" with rosettes. The braid is also copper, the same is filigran ornament, but the colour is rather more "brassy" with substantial addition of arsen.

Greetings!

Jim McDougall · 7th November 2016, 11:32 PM

I have been going through 'search', online, and notes, and as I mentioned, the 'yataghan' has a great deal of information scattered throughout these sources. While often construed simply as 'Turkish', these eared pommel, forward curved swords were prevalent throughout the Balkans, Greece, Albania and many regions of the Ottoman Empire.

One source I would highly recommend is Robert Elgood's
"The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors".
In his usual comprehensive manner, Elgood shows many examples and footnotes, cites, and bibliography should provide great channels to pursue in this research.

I found some notes pertaining to the term 'karakulak' (=dark, or black ears) used for these swords in the Balkans and Greece.
Meanwhile the term hun'gar or hun'cer (Ar. khanjhar) the root of the term hanger, is also applicable in degree, so more on the use of these terms might need clarification.

mankova · 8th November 2016, 12:26 AM

Mr Jim McDougall,
Your thoughts are priceless

I'm very grateful

Mr Kubur, indeed

museum notes for those objects say it's Balkan

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel
Try "Yatagani" by Gozde Yasar. Collection of Askeri Muze in Istanbul.

thank you, I will search for it

TVV · 8th November 2016, 12:27 AM

Ms. Mankova,

I will second Jim's suggestion about trying to obtain a copy of Elgood's "The Arms of Greece and (some) of its Balkan Neighbors". Not only the chapter on yataghans will help answer your questions about the origin of the form, but the first few chapters in the book provide a great background into the history of arms and armor and their manufacture and trade within the Ottoman Empire. This background is essential in trying to understand the yataghan, especially when you consider that a blade hilted in Foca may have been mounted in a silver scabbard in Istanbul and sold to a client from Asia Minor.

The Askeri Museum catalog, along with the Zagreb History Museum catalog are just this: catalogs. They have some general history chapters, but the goal of those books is to list a whole bunch of examples, without any real study into areas of origin. You can see the materials, the translated inscriptions and a date for most of the examples, but that is about it. The Dora Boskovic book could be useful as it has multiple similar yataghans to the ones you are tasked with restoring, as the focus of that collection is yataghans from the Western Balkans.

I would be very careful using Astvatsaturian's book, as the yataghan typology there is purely the author's guess, as she admits in the text. She tries to examine the decorative techniques used to come up with geographical attribution and for example ends up attributing a group of Greek yataghans to Eastern Anatolia because of the use of niello, which she believes has to be tied to the Caucasus.

To sum it up, my recommendation is for you to obtain Elgood's book. If all you need from the museum catalogs are the pictures and descriptions of similar yataghans to the two you are restoring, then I can probably help with that.

Sincerely,
Teodor

Jerseyman · 8th November 2016, 07:01 AM

[QUOTE=Meanwhile the term hun'gar or hun'cer (Ar. khanjhar) the root of the term hanger, is also applicable in degree, so more on the use of these terms might need clarification.[/QUOTE]

Jim - that's very interesting - are you sure of that etymological link? I've often wondered where the term hanger came from as applied to swords. Do you have any further information on that?

mariusgmioc · 8th November 2016, 09:19 AM

Hello,

I would also be quite cautious using the Elgood's book as a reference for the Yataghan's origin as, in my oppinion, his attributions are mostly anecdotal and not based on their features' analysis.

In my absolutely novice's oppinion, these Yataghans appear to be from the Balkans (most likely Bosnia).

Good luck!

7th November 2016, 10:46 PM	#5
mankova Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 8	Big thanks for You all I will try to find a compromise between theory and practice. I mean I want to do a proper restoration with good theoretical base about the object. I'm not an art and weaponry historian, but for my objects I must know their origin and general history. Being here and reading fascinating informations and a lot of posts full of passion, cause thirst of knowledge in me As Mr Jim McDougall noticed, it's not an easy field to research, because of its diversity. And with not enough bibliography in my country (for ordinary person like me to read in 5 languages may be hard, as far as i will find those publications i want ). Nevertheless it's worth to try I was searching some resemblence in Turetskoe Oruzhie and on the blade of one yataghan. What do you think, may I be right? Monika Attached Images

7th November 2016, 01:12 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Your Yataghans smell something like Sarajevo... at least for the hilt...

7th November 2016, 04:26 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Try "Yatagani" by Gozde Yasar. Collection of Askeri Muze in Istanbul.

7th November 2016, 06:44 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Mankova, thank you for visiting us here, and for the interesting query on yataghans. You have chosen a fascinating and challenging topic for your thesis, and as the very knowledgeable members here furnish titles and suggestions, I hope you might say more on the nature or scope of your intended study. The history and development of the yataghan is somewhat complex due to its diversity and diffusion into various regions and throughout the Ottoman Empire. I must admit that classifying and identifying these is, at least for me, a daunting task. The titles recommended so far here are great suggestions and I look forward to seeing an even more comprehensive bibliography develop. I hope we might also develop some discussion regarding the classifications and characteristics of many of the established regional types.

7th November 2016, 11:17 PM	#6
mankova Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 8	Of course on the picture supposed to be Muhammad, not Muhhamad. Mr Jens Nordlunde, I saw Mrs Feurbach here on forum, and also found her facebook page about Yataghans I think about writing to her, but at this moment my brain is gonna explode because of so many information in extraordinary languages :P I may say that i did some lab tests, and I found out that: 1st yataghan (bigger, with complete hilt): the "golden" letters, and rivets are made in brass, and the floral ornament at the hilt is silver. 2nd yataghan (incomplete hilt): letters are silver (oxidised to black), hilt has coral of course, brass rivets, and copper "ribbon" with rosettes. The braid is also copper, the same is filigran ornament, but the colour is rather more "brassy" with substantial addition of arsen. Greetings!

7th November 2016, 11:32 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	I have been going through 'search', online, and notes, and as I mentioned, the 'yataghan' has a great deal of information scattered throughout these sources. While often construed simply as 'Turkish', these eared pommel, forward curved swords were prevalent throughout the Balkans, Greece, Albania and many regions of the Ottoman Empire. One source I would highly recommend is Robert Elgood's "The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors". In his usual comprehensive manner, Elgood shows many examples and footnotes, cites, and bibliography should provide great channels to pursue in this research. I found some notes pertaining to the term 'karakulak' (=dark, or black ears) used for these swords in the Balkans and Greece. Meanwhile the term hun'gar or hun'cer (Ar. khanjhar) the root of the term hanger, is also applicable in degree, so more on the use of these terms might need clarification.

8th November 2016, 12:27 AM	#9
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Ms. Mankova, I will second Jim's suggestion about trying to obtain a copy of Elgood's "The Arms of Greece and (some) of its Balkan Neighbors". Not only the chapter on yataghans will help answer your questions about the origin of the form, but the first few chapters in the book provide a great background into the history of arms and armor and their manufacture and trade within the Ottoman Empire. This background is essential in trying to understand the yataghan, especially when you consider that a blade hilted in Foca may have been mounted in a silver scabbard in Istanbul and sold to a client from Asia Minor. The Askeri Museum catalog, along with the Zagreb History Museum catalog are just this: catalogs. They have some general history chapters, but the goal of those books is to list a whole bunch of examples, without any real study into areas of origin. You can see the materials, the translated inscriptions and a date for most of the examples, but that is about it. The Dora Boskovic book could be useful as it has multiple similar yataghans to the ones you are tasked with restoring, as the focus of that collection is yataghans from the Western Balkans. I would be very careful using Astvatsaturian's book, as the yataghan typology there is purely the author's guess, as she admits in the text. She tries to examine the decorative techniques used to come up with geographical attribution and for example ends up attributing a group of Greek yataghans to Eastern Anatolia because of the use of niello, which she believes has to be tied to the Caucasus. To sum it up, my recommendation is for you to obtain Elgood's book. If all you need from the museum catalogs are the pictures and descriptions of similar yataghans to the two you are restoring, then I can probably help with that. Sincerely, Teodor

8th November 2016, 07:01 AM	#10
Jerseyman Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	[QUOTE=Meanwhile the term hun'gar or hun'cer (Ar. khanjhar) the root of the term hanger, is also applicable in degree, so more on the use of these terms might need clarification.[/QUOTE] Jim - that's very interesting - are you sure of that etymological link? I've often wondered where the term hanger came from as applied to swords. Do you have any further information on that?

8th November 2016, 09:19 AM	#11
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Hello, I would also be quite cautious using the Elgood's book as a reference for the Yataghan's origin as, in my oppinion, his attributions are mostly anecdotal and not based on their features' analysis. In my absolutely novice's oppinion, these Yataghans appear to be from the Balkans (most likely Bosnia). Good luck!