Kris for discussion

[A. G. Maisey]

Ariel, I do understand that from your perspective the comments I have made in respect of the ideal restoration for this pedang might seem a little extreme. However, we form our opinions based upon our experience and background:- your experience and background indicates that the restoration I would deem to be suitable is going too far, whereas my experience and background tells me that I am looking at something that has been very poorly treated in the past and now deserves to be given some respect.

When dealing with the respected iron (tosan aji) of Indonesia, and of Jawa and Bali in particular, we need to try to understand that it is the iron component alone of a weapon that holds the spirit of the weapon, the hilt and scabbard are merely dress items. The parallel can be drawn, and in Javanese thought is drawn, with a human being:- a man stripped of his clothing contains his spirit within, it is the man we value, not the clothing. Similarly with a weapon:- it is the blade we value, the dress is a passing thing.

If this pedang were to fall into the hands of a Javanese gentleman who followed traditional values, it would probably be stripped of that hilt, and the inferior scabbard, and totally redressed in a bespoke hilt and scabbard of scented sandalwood. The blade would be minimally reshaped to remove rough edges, the faces of the blade may, or may not be slightly re-polished, then restained. In short, it would undergo a complete renovation, the objective of which would be to bring the tosan aji component of this pedang to a standard which would assist in the continuation of its life --- yes, it is alive --- for following generations.

Anybody who has received traditional instruction in the field of Javanese values would recognise that these actions described above are a duty to the maker of this blade, to its previous owners, and to the culture of which all are a part.

I understand that this is a slightly different way of looking at things from the usual way in which collectors of antiques from Western cultures look at what they collect, but in the thought patterns of the culture from which this pedang comes, it is not really an antique, it is tosan aji, and as such a living thing.

[GIO]

Hi Detlef,
many thanks for your kind answer.
After reading your post and the various references you have supplied, I found this subject not so simple to understand. I came nevertheless to two conclusions:
1. the hilt is not a distinctive characteristic,
2. when the blade is similar to that of a western sword, its origin is Lombok .
I hope to be not so far from the correct interpretation. If not please apologize: clearly I need some more experience in the field of Indonesian weapons.
Thanks again for your help.
Gio

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by GIO

1. the hilt is not a distinctive characteristic,
2. when the blade is similar to that of a western sword, its origin is Lombok .
I hope to be not so far from the correct interpretation. If not please apologize: clearly I need some more experience in the field of Indonesian weapons.

Hi Gio,

when you look again to the links I've provided in up you will see that the Lombok examples have all similar hilts, so to to your first statement I can't agree complete. For point two yes but for sure there will be exceptions.
But please keep in mind that this is just my humble opinion and like always I could be wrong.

Best regards,
Detlef

[GIO]

Hi Detlef,
here is my pedang. IMHO it is Sumatran. What is your opinion ?
Sorry for the bad pics and thanks in advance.
Gio

[kai]

Sorry, Gio, we do need better pics!

Especially close-ups of the hilt would be important (and also a full view of the scabbard). Any special features of the blade?

Since this is a very different beast, I'd suggest to open a new thread for your piece.

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by GIO

IMHO it is Sumatran. What is your opinion ?

Hi GIO,

look to the tripartite handle collar and as well the flow of the scabbard, very similar to the both examples from naga82 so I would think that your example is from Lombok. But like Kai I would like to see better pictures.

Regards,
Detlef

[Rick]

Here is an example within the context of culture.
Maybe there are some clues.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Rick

Here is an example within the context of culture.
Maybe there are some clues.

Hello Rick,

do you know from where exact this picture?

Regards,
Detlef

[GIO]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi GIO,

...... But like Kai I would like to see better pictures.

Regards,
Detlef

Thanks to a sunny day I hope these pictures are better..

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by GIO

Thanks to a sunny day I hope these pictures are better..

Hello Gio,

very nice pedang! Still would say it's a Lombok one but others may have a different opinion.

Regards,
Detlef