Another cup hilt rapier for id

fernando · 5th November 2016, 12:28 PM

Hi Jean-Luc,
In order to better distinguish your two threads on cup hilted swords, i have renamed the later one to Another culpit rapier for id.
Salutations

.

fernando · 5th November 2016, 12:44 PM

What if the thumb ring was a later addition ?

Philip · 19th November 2016, 06:14 AM

On the whole, the hilt appears to be a provincial version of the typical Hispano-Italian cup hilt that was at the height of popularity in the second half of the 17th cent. The cup itself can have either a circular or scalloped (as in the case of this specimen) rim. Common for this style is the bun-shaped pommel and the flaring, flattened terminus of the knucklebow which never actually joins the pommel. Numerous up-market examples of the genre can be seen in Boccia and Coelho, ARMI BIANCHE ITALIANE (1975). Ewart Oakeshott, EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR FROM THE RENAISSANCE TO THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION (1980 ed.) states that the shallower, hemispherical cups are Spanish and the deeper ones Italian, but this is not supported in other publications or in the identification of a considerable number of both types in the Wallace Collection. The thumb ring on the example in this post seems to be an anomaly, based on the specimens I've handled and have recently seen up close in a recent visit to the Wallace. The one thing that the posted specimen seems to lack is the "guarda-polvo" , a supplemental reinforcing plate at the bottom of the cup which is the norm on all cup hilts, even those with solid as opposed to openwork cups. One thing that comes to mind in looking at this piece is the unusually wide blade for the genre. It is not a true rapier blade profile, and I've not seen it on any published example or in my experience. This, and the presence of the thumb ring, leads me to suppose that this is a remounted piece, a composite or modification. Fernando may well be onto something here...

fernando · 19th November 2016, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

...The one thing that the posted specimen seems to lack is the "guarda-polvo" , a supplemental reinforcing plate at the bottom of the cup which is the norm on all cup hilts ...

Interesting perspective, Philip. In my limited experience, i realized that, the "guarda pó" as well as the "quebra pontas", appear to be one of the norms, but not the general norm.

Jim McDougall · 19th November 2016, 07:18 PM

I am glad to see that in this elucidation you agree that this may well be a colonial (provincial) specimen Philip, and that it is certainly an anomaly as far as the curious thumb guard. As noted, the absence of guardapolvo is pretty much consistent in the ' colonial' or 'Caribbean' examples of these cup hilts.

One thing with the colonial versions of cup hilt is that the heavier blades were due to the fact that these were 'arming' swords, rather than the fashionable civilian rapiers in most cases. Perhaps the shorter blade was for the reason that these were most often worn by foot troops' officers. In the colonies' northern frontiers including the American Southwest, the prevalent weapon was the lance, though the espada ancha, was used mostly as a machete as well as secondary weapon.

The notion of being remounted as well as refurbished with requested features such as this thumb ring could have been quite understandable with the innovative blacksmiths of these regions.

Philip · 20th November 2016, 02:58 AM

Jim, I would imagine that these bilbos outfitted for colonial service were also issued to garrisons in tropical areas where troops had to venture into rainforests, or sail up creeks in canoes and small boats. I can see the value of a more compact sword than a full-length rapier, not to mention one with a blade that has at least some cutting ability and enough mass to parry a native war club. The cup hilt itself presents issues as re convenient portability. Oakeshott rightly points out that this hilt, though an extremely efficient hand protector, is bulky when worn at the belt, and that very long, thrust-only blades aren't practical in a battle melee. Besides that, the scabbards are simply too fragile -- I have a Milanese cuphilt whose period sheath has survived, and imagine a stiff leather tube, tapering down to a skinny conical metal tip, that hugs the blade closely with no internal liner or stiffener (such as a wood or metal core) to reinforce it once the sword is out. No wonder that only a miniscule number of rapiers on the market and in collections have intact sheaths.

fernando · 20th November 2016, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

... Oakeshott rightly points out that this hilt, though an extremely efficient hand protector, is bulky when worn at the belt, and that very long, thrust-only blades aren't practical in a battle melee...

Absolutely. Daehnardt also pointed out in a conversation the uncomfortable volume of large cup bowls when worn at the belt, mentioning that infantry troops favoured smaller ones.
I also fully understand the convenience of compact blades in battle. My last acquisition in this area represents a good example of such marriage; certainly not a colonial specimen but still ... with a 11 cms. bowl and 18 cms. quillons; a blade 43 m/m. wide and a length of 69 cms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

... I have a Milanese cuphilt whose period sheath has survived ...only a miniscule number of rapiers on the market and in collections have intact sheaths.

Ah, what an amazing ahievement, Philip; please allow me to feel envious.

.

Jim McDougall · 20th November 2016, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Jim, I would imagine that these bilbos outfitted for colonial service were also issued to garrisons in tropical areas where troops had to venture into rainforests, or sail up creeks in canoes and small boats. I can see the value of a more compact sword than a full-length rapier, not to mention one with a blade that has at least some cutting ability and enough mass to parry a native war club. The cup hilt itself presents issues as re convenient portability. Oakeshott rightly points out that this hilt, though an extremely efficient hand protector, is bulky when worn at the belt, and that very long, thrust-only blades aren't practical in a battle melee. Besides that, the scabbards are simply too fragile -- I have a Milanese cuphilt whose period sheath has survived, and imagine a stiff leather tube, tapering down to a skinny conical metal tip, that hugs the blade closely with no internal liner or stiffener (such as a wood or metal core) to reinforce it once the sword is out. No wonder that only a miniscule number of rapiers on the market and in collections have intact sheaths.

Very well noted Philip, and indeed the case for shorter and more effectively proportioned swords seems as you say, well represented in the southern areas of America (Louisiana, Florida etc) and the 'Caribbean'hilt (as termed by Peterson) did have shorter, stout blades.

Just as some of my own observations which I add for comment more for general readership here, and are details which are of course well known by you, I would additionally suggest;

A true rapier blade, thin and typically long, would be effectively useless in combat situations where high impact, and wildly variable circumstances would probably break it almost immediately. These were suited only for one on one more controlled interaction in fencing and dueling.

The large cup hilt or any heavily constructed hilt would be most inconvenient worn at the waist through a sash and these kinds of annoyances would likely have been attended to with less obtrusive carry methods. It seems like the scabbard carry configuration with such rapiers typically had the hilt outward and forward toward more horizontal plane.

On another note regarding hilt size outside rapiers, the British heavy cavalry M1796 sword with the heavy full disc guard was eventually regarded as a nuisance as the disc reportedly chafed uniforms. The remedy was to cut down the inner side of the disc. This seems odd as these swords were usually worn with dramatically long straps in the flamboyant Napoleonic hussar convention of almost, if not actually , dragging the ground (hence the term 'drag' on the surround on the chape of the scabbard).

The scabbard you have is an outstanding anomaly, as rapier scabbards in any case seem to have been fragile affairs which seldom survived through time while their steel and iron occupants of course did.

5th November 2016, 12:28 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Threads with same title ... Hi Jean-Luc, In order to better distinguish your two threads on cup hilted swords, i have renamed the later one to Another culpit rapier for id. Salutations .

20th November 2016, 02:58 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	the value of shorter blades Jim, I would imagine that these bilbos outfitted for colonial service were also issued to garrisons in tropical areas where troops had to venture into rainforests, or sail up creeks in canoes and small boats. I can see the value of a more compact sword than a full-length rapier, not to mention one with a blade that has at least some cutting ability and enough mass to parry a native war club. The cup hilt itself presents issues as re convenient portability. Oakeshott rightly points out that this hilt, though an extremely efficient hand protector, is bulky when worn at the belt, and that very long, thrust-only blades aren't practical in a battle melee. Besides that, the scabbards are simply too fragile -- I have a Milanese cuphilt whose period sheath has survived, and imagine a stiff leather tube, tapering down to a skinny conical metal tip, that hugs the blade closely with no internal liner or stiffener (such as a wood or metal core) to reinforce it once the sword is out. No wonder that only a miniscule number of rapiers on the market and in collections have intact sheaths.

5th November 2016, 12:44 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	What if the thumb ring was a later addition ?

19th November 2016, 06:14 AM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	On the whole, the hilt appears to be a provincial version of the typical Hispano-Italian cup hilt that was at the height of popularity in the second half of the 17th cent. The cup itself can have either a circular or scalloped (as in the case of this specimen) rim. Common for this style is the bun-shaped pommel and the flaring, flattened terminus of the knucklebow which never actually joins the pommel. Numerous up-market examples of the genre can be seen in Boccia and Coelho, ARMI BIANCHE ITALIANE (1975). Ewart Oakeshott, EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR FROM THE RENAISSANCE TO THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION (1980 ed.) states that the shallower, hemispherical cups are Spanish and the deeper ones Italian, but this is not supported in other publications or in the identification of a considerable number of both types in the Wallace Collection. The thumb ring on the example in this post seems to be an anomaly, based on the specimens I've handled and have recently seen up close in a recent visit to the Wallace. The one thing that the posted specimen seems to lack is the "guarda-polvo" , a supplemental reinforcing plate at the bottom of the cup which is the norm on all cup hilts, even those with solid as opposed to openwork cups. One thing that comes to mind in looking at this piece is the unusually wide blade for the genre. It is not a true rapier blade profile, and I've not seen it on any published example or in my experience. This, and the presence of the thumb ring, leads me to suppose that this is a remounted piece, a composite or modification. Fernando may well be onto something here...

19th November 2016, 07:18 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I am glad to see that in this elucidation you agree that this may well be a colonial (provincial) specimen Philip, and that it is certainly an anomaly as far as the curious thumb guard. As noted, the absence of guardapolvo is pretty much consistent in the ' colonial' or 'Caribbean' examples of these cup hilts. One thing with the colonial versions of cup hilt is that the heavier blades were due to the fact that these were 'arming' swords, rather than the fashionable civilian rapiers in most cases. Perhaps the shorter blade was for the reason that these were most often worn by foot troops' officers. In the colonies' northern frontiers including the American Southwest, the prevalent weapon was the lance, though the espada ancha, was used mostly as a machete as well as secondary weapon. The notion of being remounted as well as refurbished with requested features such as this thumb ring could have been quite understandable with the innovative blacksmiths of these regions.