Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 1st November 2016, 10:53 AM   #1
Cerjak
Member
 
Cerjak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 902
Default 16TH Century stiletto dagger ?

16TH Century stiletto dagger ?
It has a cruciform blade
O.L. 29 cm ; blade L. 19 cm
Any comment on it would be welcome.
Best

Cerjak
Attached Images
     
Cerjak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2016, 11:26 AM   #2
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,266
Default

Isn't the blade a shortened one ? The handle, some crude replacement ? .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2016, 01:57 PM   #3
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 948
Default

Very confusing piece. I believe only the crossguard may come from a 16 c stiletto but the rest is of much more recent artisanal production.

Definitely not typical stiletto.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2016, 02:22 PM   #4
drac2k
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 518
Default

Very interesting ; I think it may be more of a WW1 trench dagger;the blade looks to be made of a French Lebel bayonet.
Nice dagger !
drac2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2016, 03:33 PM   #5
Cerjak
Member
 
Cerjak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 902
Default

Hi
Thank you for your answers and opinions
I should have post before some more pics and add more dimensions.
The blade width at hilt 1.5 cm /8mm so canít be from a French Lebel bayonet who blade width is about 13 mm.The wood show real sign of age,and the guard and blade corrosion are homogenous so should be from the same period. Yes the grip is crudely made or I would say basic but again seems really old and definitively not a recent work. Also Similar blade geometry are found in 16-17TH stiletto dagger.
Let see what other members think about this small dagger..
Attached Images
    
Cerjak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd November 2016, 11:13 AM   #6
Cerjak
Member
 
Cerjak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 902
Default

similar quillons are found in the 16th to 17th dagger
see pictures
Attached Images
 
Cerjak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd November 2016, 11:58 AM   #7
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,266
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerjak
similar quillons are found in the 16th to 17th dagger
see pictures

Yes but, not the blades .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd November 2016, 04:39 PM   #8
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 948
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Yes but, not the blades .


Neither the hilts!
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd November 2016, 06:27 PM   #9
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 888
Default

it looks that this is a composite dagger, made from heterogeneous parts (not belonging together) in the second half of the 16th century, or a bit later.
The blade is a characteristic poniard dagger blade of the so called Bolognese type. North Italian. very stiff with a medial ridge on each side. see Picture
of a poniard in the MET 26.145.117

The style reminds me of the later ballock dagger construction with a steel ball/ballock guard without a pommel or pommel plate but with a small diamond shaped plate riveted at the end of the wooden grip. maybe you can post a Picture of it, Jean Luc ?

the whole thing looks coarsely constructed but was certainly usable.
in view of the blade and the guard is the origin probably north italian

best,
Jasper
Attached Images
 
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2016, 09:50 AM   #10
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 948
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
The blade is a characteristic poniard dagger blade of the so called Bolognese type. North Italian. very stiff with a medial ridge on each side. see Picture
of a poniard in the MET 26.145.117


Hello Jasper,

I honestly fail to see too many similarities between the blade in question and the one in the photo you provided. The one in your example appears to be triangular with fullers on each face, while the one in the original posting is flat with two grooves/three ridges on each of the two sides.

mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2016, 11:59 AM   #11
Cerjak
Member
 
Cerjak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 902
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
it looks that this is a composite dagger, made from heterogeneous parts (not belonging together) in the second half of the 16th century, or a bit later.
The blade is a characteristic poniard dagger blade of the so called Bolognese type. North Italian. very stiff with a medial ridge on each side. see Picture
of a poniard in the MET 26.145.117

The style reminds me of the later ballock dagger construction with a steel ball/ballock guard without a pommel or pommel plate but with a small diamond shaped plate riveted at the end of the wooden grip. maybe you can post a Picture of it, Jean Luc ?

the whole thing looks coarsely constructed but was certainly usable.
in view of the blade and the guard is the origin probably north italian

best,
Jasper

Hi Jasper,
I have expected your answer about this dagger.
I felt strongly that this blade was not a recent pattern and from the same period than the quillon but I could not find similar blade geometry in my data.
I feel more comfortable with your about opinion that it is a composite and probably made during the 17TH century with 16-17th century component .

Best
Jean-Luc
Attached Images
  
Cerjak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2016, 09:54 PM   #12
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 888
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Hello Jasper,

I honestly fail to see too many similarities between the blade in question and the one in the photo you provided. The one in your example appears to be triangular with fullers on each face, while the one in the original posting is flat with two grooves/three ridges on each of the two sides.



it is not triangular but a blade of Diamond section, both sides have a Long flattened ridge, running in the middle of the blade.
With this type of blades, often , at one side the ridge extends over the ricasso and at the other side the ridge stops before the ricasso, so that the thumb can be placed on a flat surface.

best,
Attached Images
 

Last edited by cornelistromp : 4th November 2016 at 10:08 PM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th November 2016, 05:10 PM   #13
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 948
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
it is not triangular but a blade of Diamond section, both sides have a Long flattened ridge, running in the middle of the blade.
With this type of blades, often , at one side the ridge extends over the ricasso and at the other side the ridge stops before the ricasso, so that the thumb can be placed on a flat surface.

best,


Thank you for the clarification!

Still, quite different from the one in the original posting.

Not that I am very knowledgeable, but I haven't seen that type of blade before.

mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th November 2016, 07:40 PM   #14
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 888
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Thank you for the clarification!

I haven't seen that type of blade before.



Quote Oakeshott
"that you have never seen it before means nothing unless you have seen them all, those hundreds thousands of blades"


best,
jasper
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th November 2016, 07:49 PM   #15
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 948
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
Quote Oakeshott
"that you have never seen it before means nothing unless you have seen them all, those hundreds thousands of blades"


best,
jasper


True indeed!
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th December 2016, 08:12 AM   #16
Cerjak
Member
 
Cerjak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 902
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
it looks that this is a composite dagger, made from heterogeneous parts (not belonging together) in the second half of the 16th century, or a bit later.
The blade is a characteristic poniard dagger blade of the so called Bolognese type. North Italian. very stiff with a medial ridge on each side. see Picture
of a poniard in the MET 26.145.117

The style reminds me of the later ballock dagger construction with a steel ball/ballock guard without a pommel or pommel plate but with a small diamond shaped plate riveted at the end of the wooden grip. maybe you can post a Picture of it, Jean Luc ?

the whole thing looks coarsely constructed but was certainly usable.
in view of the blade and the guard is the origin probably north italian

best,
Jasper

Hi JASPER

I found this dagger said to be Italian with same quillons and blade .
best

Jean-Luc
Attached Images
  
Cerjak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th December 2016, 11:08 AM   #17
Multumesc
Member
 
Multumesc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Romania
Posts: 174
Send a message via Yahoo to Multumesc
Default

Nice dagger
Multumesc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:42 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.