Another cup hilt rapier for id

mariusgmioc · 2nd November 2016, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

I will post extra pictures later ASAP .
"The blade was probably a shortened a little." I don't think and also there is no sign who could confirm this possibility .
What make you think that it could be the case ?
best
CERJAK

I think the average blade length of this type of rapiers normally exceeded 100 cm (sometimes by as much as 30 cm, but probably most of them were in range of 105-115 cm). So 92 cm is rather short for a Rapier.

But as I said before, I am definitely not very knowledgeable on the subject.

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2016, 06:07 AM

Away from references at the moment, but these wider blades (actually similar to schiavona blades with this central fuller) were military associated as 'arming' swords and of latter 17th c. It seems these followed traditional cuphilt fashion for a time, but as Fernando notes, the knuckleguard became screwed to the pommel later as in the 'bilbo' type swords.

It seems that the thumbguard or ring on this reflects that military feature which was often present on military swords of Continental Europe in these times.

Perhaps "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America" might have something on these forms.

I have often wondered if the German smiths who relocated to Spain might have added these continental features to these kinds of swords. It seems that several German makers were known there but there may have been others outside the parameters of recorded smiths.

The 'ship' marking seems familiar, need to check Bezdek, Kinman, etc
I know it is not Spanish, but I believe German.

Cerjak · 4th November 2016, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Away from references at the moment, but these wider blades (actually similar to schiavona blades with this central fuller) were military associated as 'arming' swords and of latter 17th c. It seems these followed traditional cuphilt fashion for a time, but as Fernando notes, the knuckleguard became screwed to the pommel later as in the 'bilbo' type swords.

It seems that the thumbguard or ring on this reflects that military feature which was often present on military swords of Continental Europe in these times.

Perhaps "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America" might have something on these forms.

I have often wondered if the German smiths who relocated to Spain might have added these continental features to these kinds of swords. It seems that several German makers were known there but there may have been others outside the parameters of recorded smiths.

The 'ship' marking seems familiar, need to check Bezdek, Kinman, etc
I know it is not Spanish, but I believe German.

Hi Jim

I have seen nothing on "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America"
also I have try to decipher the the blade marks and it seems that it could be soligen.
Best

Jean-Luc

Jim McDougall · 4th November 2016, 10:13 PM

Hi Jean Luc,
After looking in the Spanish military Weapons in Colonial America there is nothing there which shows or mentions such a ring in the guard of cup hilt rapiers. My suggestion of German influence as to that feature resembling a 'thumb ring' as on many German and European military sword hilts was a tenacious notion at best, and really does not seem to be the case.
It seems almost a rudimentary finger guard as in a pas d'ane of the developing small swords of latter 17th into 18th.

It is curious that even Norman, in "The Rapier and Small Sword" does not address this hilt form, and Fernando's note on their being termed 'margarida' is most valuable (and duly noted) as he has access to key resources with this specialized information.

Also well noted are his notes on the remarkable spectrum of blade lengths on rapier type swords, as they were typically privately commissioned and fashioned according to individual requirements. Officers often had hilts fitted with heavier combat suitable blades, but following the traditional hilt styles which Spain deeply cherished.

The blade seems of course Solingen, and more on the inscription would be helpful.

fernando · 5th November 2016, 12:28 PM

Hi Jean-Luc,
In order to better distinguish your two threads on cup hilted swords, i have renamed the later one to Another culpit rapier for id.
Salutations

.

fernando · 5th November 2016, 12:44 PM

What if the thumb ring was a later addition ?

Philip · 19th November 2016, 06:14 AM

On the whole, the hilt appears to be a provincial version of the typical Hispano-Italian cup hilt that was at the height of popularity in the second half of the 17th cent. The cup itself can have either a circular or scalloped (as in the case of this specimen) rim. Common for this style is the bun-shaped pommel and the flaring, flattened terminus of the knucklebow which never actually joins the pommel. Numerous up-market examples of the genre can be seen in Boccia and Coelho, ARMI BIANCHE ITALIANE (1975). Ewart Oakeshott, EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR FROM THE RENAISSANCE TO THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION (1980 ed.) states that the shallower, hemispherical cups are Spanish and the deeper ones Italian, but this is not supported in other publications or in the identification of a considerable number of both types in the Wallace Collection. The thumb ring on the example in this post seems to be an anomaly, based on the specimens I've handled and have recently seen up close in a recent visit to the Wallace. The one thing that the posted specimen seems to lack is the "guarda-polvo" , a supplemental reinforcing plate at the bottom of the cup which is the norm on all cup hilts, even those with solid as opposed to openwork cups. One thing that comes to mind in looking at this piece is the unusually wide blade for the genre. It is not a true rapier blade profile, and I've not seen it on any published example or in my experience. This, and the presence of the thumb ring, leads me to suppose that this is a remounted piece, a composite or modification. Fernando may well be onto something here...

fernando · 3rd November 2016, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I think the average blade length of this type of rapiers normally exceeded 100 cm (sometimes by as much as 30 cm, but probably most of them were in range of 105-115 cm). So 92 cm is rather short for a Rapier.
But as I said before, I am definitely not very knowledgeable on the subject.

I would give it as a fact that one should hesitate in determining the blade length of these swords... that not necessarily rapiers; at least in practical terms, once those beat whatever written in books.
The six examples in my little collection vary from 69 to 98 cm.(69-80-82-83-86-98).
... And the twelve units of a collection catalogued by someone from whom i have acquired a couple of mine, vary from 81 to 134 cm. (81-83-88-89-89-93-98-100-103-104-124-132). To be taken into account that the two largest ones are not to be considered as 'normal'; the so called 'off the mark', prohibited by the period authorities ... and very rare to find out there.
We may assume that, when comes to practice, rather than following a standard length, blades often followed owners conveniences, when they didn't have an average stature: short for a rather short owner, large for a rather tall one. Whether those for the shorties are commissioned to their size or shortened after acquisition, is another issue.
And then, i would guess, come the ones that are shortened for different reasons, like having been broken by accident.
I hope not to be taken too seriously, as i am no expert either

.

PS

And i would like to further point out that, the one i have with the widest blade, is the shortest one.

-

mariusgmioc · 3rd November 2016, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I would give it as a fact that one should hesitate in determining the blade length of these swords... that not necessarily rapiers; at least in practical terms, once those beat whatever written in books.
The six examples in my little collection vary from 69 to 98 cm.(69-80-82-83-86-98).
... And the twelve units of a collection catalogued by someone from whom i have acquired a couple of mine, vary from 81 to 134 cm. (81-83-88-89-89-93-98-100-103-104-124-132). To be taken into account that the two largest ones are not to be considered as 'normal'; the so called 'off the mark', prohibited by the period authorities ... and very rare to find out there.
We may assume that, when comes to practice, rather than following a standard length, blades often followed owners conveniences, when they didn't have an average stature: short for a rather short owner, large for a rather tall one. Whether those for the shorties are commissioned to their size or shortened after acquisition, is another issue.
And then, i would guess, come the ones that are shortened for different reasons, like having been broken by accident.
I hope not to be taken too seriously, as i am no expert either

.

PS

And i would like to further point out that, the one i have with the widest blade, is the shortest one.

-

Very interesting information! Thank you very much!

In the view of your information, I think I was wrong assuming it was shortened. And indeed, looking at its overall size and shape, it appears to be well proportioned with a beautifully shaped tip, probably original.

Also it seems logical that the broader the blade the shorter it should be as otherwise would become very difficult to handle because of its weight.

5th November 2016, 12:28 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Threads with same title ... Hi Jean-Luc, In order to better distinguish your two threads on cup hilted swords, i have renamed the later one to Another culpit rapier for id. Salutations .

3rd November 2016, 06:07 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Away from references at the moment, but these wider blades (actually similar to schiavona blades with this central fuller) were military associated as 'arming' swords and of latter 17th c. It seems these followed traditional cuphilt fashion for a time, but as Fernando notes, the knuckleguard became screwed to the pommel later as in the 'bilbo' type swords. It seems that the thumbguard or ring on this reflects that military feature which was often present on military swords of Continental Europe in these times. Perhaps "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America" might have something on these forms. I have often wondered if the German smiths who relocated to Spain might have added these continental features to these kinds of swords. It seems that several German makers were known there but there may have been others outside the parameters of recorded smiths. The 'ship' marking seems familiar, need to check Bezdek, Kinman, etc I know it is not Spanish, but I believe German.

4th November 2016, 10:13 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Jean Luc, After looking in the Spanish military Weapons in Colonial America there is nothing there which shows or mentions such a ring in the guard of cup hilt rapiers. My suggestion of German influence as to that feature resembling a 'thumb ring' as on many German and European military sword hilts was a tenacious notion at best, and really does not seem to be the case. It seems almost a rudimentary finger guard as in a pas d'ane of the developing small swords of latter 17th into 18th. It is curious that even Norman, in "The Rapier and Small Sword" does not address this hilt form, and Fernando's note on their being termed 'margarida' is most valuable (and duly noted) as he has access to key resources with this specialized information. Also well noted are his notes on the remarkable spectrum of blade lengths on rapier type swords, as they were typically privately commissioned and fashioned according to individual requirements. Officers often had hilts fitted with heavier combat suitable blades, but following the traditional hilt styles which Spain deeply cherished. The blade seems of course Solingen, and more on the inscription would be helpful.

5th November 2016, 12:44 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	What if the thumb ring was a later addition ?

19th November 2016, 06:14 AM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	On the whole, the hilt appears to be a provincial version of the typical Hispano-Italian cup hilt that was at the height of popularity in the second half of the 17th cent. The cup itself can have either a circular or scalloped (as in the case of this specimen) rim. Common for this style is the bun-shaped pommel and the flaring, flattened terminus of the knucklebow which never actually joins the pommel. Numerous up-market examples of the genre can be seen in Boccia and Coelho, ARMI BIANCHE ITALIANE (1975). Ewart Oakeshott, EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR FROM THE RENAISSANCE TO THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION (1980 ed.) states that the shallower, hemispherical cups are Spanish and the deeper ones Italian, but this is not supported in other publications or in the identification of a considerable number of both types in the Wallace Collection. The thumb ring on the example in this post seems to be an anomaly, based on the specimens I've handled and have recently seen up close in a recent visit to the Wallace. The one thing that the posted specimen seems to lack is the "guarda-polvo" , a supplemental reinforcing plate at the bottom of the cup which is the norm on all cup hilts, even those with solid as opposed to openwork cups. One thing that comes to mind in looking at this piece is the unusually wide blade for the genre. It is not a true rapier blade profile, and I've not seen it on any published example or in my experience. This, and the presence of the thumb ring, leads me to suppose that this is a remounted piece, a composite or modification. Fernando may well be onto something here...