The flowers on the tulwar hilts

Pukka Bundook · 30th October 2016, 04:01 PM

Jens,

Firstly, Thank You for making your catalogue available! I have not yet got my copy.
When you started this thread, I wondered if you meant the flower (phool) or the disc decoration.
Quite a few years ago, I recall our discussions on just this subject, but am afraid I recall it imperfectly now.
I am quite sure however that the gist we agreed upon, was that the flower (on Hindu arms) was not merely decorative, but to attract the attention of a deity for some purpose, Or to symbolise the same.
I know poppies are associated with a certain deity, but do not remember which at present! Poppies are a very common theme in hilt decoration, as are Lotus buds.
For some reason, fishes as decoration appear to be limited to katars, and this may seem odd to others besides myself!
Fishes/Vishnu or one of the associated incarnations of the same deity never (never??) seem to appear on sword hilts.
I will have to do some looking and thinking on this interesting subject Jens. It has been off the back-burner for a Long time!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st October 2016, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Jens,

Firstly, Thank You for making your catalogue available! I have not yet got my copy.
When you started this thread, I wondered if you meant the flower (phool) or the disc decoration.
Quite a few years ago, I recall our discussions on just this subject, but am afraid I recall it imperfectly now.
I am quite sure however that the gist we agreed upon, was that the flower (on Hindu arms) was not merely decorative, but to attract the attention of a deity for some purpose, Or to symbolise the same.
I know poppies are associated with a certain deity, but do not remember which at present! Poppies are a very common theme in hilt decoration, as are Lotus buds.
For some reason, fishes as decoration appear to be limited to katars, and this may seem odd to others besides myself!
Fishes/Vishnu or one of the associated incarnations of the same deity never (never??) seem to appear on sword hilts.
I will have to do some looking and thinking on this interesting subject Jens. It has been off the back-burner for a Long time!

Salaams Pukka Bundook See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ace+collection # 41 where there is a Tulvar sword numbered 1412 in that collection with Fish on the hilt... as below ~

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Pukka Bundook · 1st November 2016, 02:59 AM

Salaams Ibrahiim,

I thought when I wrote 'never' it would bring something to light!
Thank you for the link to that spectacular thread.
The tulwar you show here is very different in decoration to any I have seen before. Very well done and possibly unique. Thank you for this!

Richard.

Jens Nordlunde · 1st November 2016, 05:30 PM

I think we will have to see the 'flower' decorations in two steps.
The Phool is to my oppinion more orientated to a place/clan/sub clan and so on. As it is likely that the different clans, maybe of the same religion would use the same Phool. It can sometimes be a bit difficult to know which clan/sub clan belonged together, as they had differrent names.
The other flower decoration, the one on the hilt, is also somewhat orientated to a place, but far more to a fashion - to when it was made. This leads me to warn you that some of the decorations were made on far older weapons. The old decoration stripped off, and a new decoration started a new era of the weapon.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st January 2017, 05:27 PM

I suggest that since this excellent thread is nowhere near complete that it be given the traditional Forum Bump ! bringing it into focus for further research and comments.

In particular the mystic nature of this hilt artwork and its importance across the entire range of Indian weapons. In fact I would have preferred its tittle to have been all encompassing perhaps netting in the entire conundrum as Talismanic and Mystical Artwork of Indian Weapons; down the ages, or Indian Bladed Weapons; Mystical and Talismanic artwork. Or something similar so that the subject can have a full airing.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st January 2017, 06:04 PM

As an example of the apparent depth of the puzzle surrounding Daro Shikoh I refer here to the odd situation of his portrait portfolio at http://www.academia.edu/7202804/The_...interpretation

Quote''Most of the paintings can be fitted into a preconceived scheme, although the precise purpose of the flower paintings is not yet quite clear. The significant numbers of religious figures and both Hindu and Muslim ascetics of various persuasions obviously reflect Dara Shikoh’s early interest in religion and philosophy. Two Hindu yogis who form a pair by themselves are of earlier date than the rest of the album and these paintings have been enlarged to fit in. This is the only instance of paired ascetics in the album.

The prince we know from his writings was interested in Hindu philosophy from his youth, although he did not write about it until the late 1640s. He also studied the Hindu philosophical system of the Vedanta and produced a Persian translation of the Sanskrit Upanishads, while one of his later books compares the two mystical philosophies of the Vedanta and Sufism ''Unquote.

Although the reference draws a secondary conclusion based on the artwork it may be important to note that he was very much a believer in the Mystic aspects of life then...and it is worth looking at the floral clues on weaponry for a link. On the other hand it could turn out as a general statement that Daro Shikoh whilst fascinated by the arts, that this was entirely co incidental and that sword hilts..and possibly other weapons were simply painted to a set of known designs and that no such mystic based link prevailed.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st January 2017, 06:32 PM

Please see; http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/p...talismans.html

I have selected this North Indian design as it struck me that its circular pattern was reminiscent of the large disc atop Tulvar Pommels ..It is typically in Indian script and follows the geometry of such weapons ...whilst conveniently it is part of a treatise on Talismanic detail.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

21st January 2017, 05:27 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Dara Shikoh ... A Mystic in his own right.. Artistic Influence. I suggest that since this excellent thread is nowhere near complete that it be given the traditional Forum Bump ! bringing it into focus for further research and comments. In particular the mystic nature of this hilt artwork and its importance across the entire range of Indian weapons. In fact I would have preferred its tittle to have been all encompassing perhaps netting in the entire conundrum as Talismanic and Mystical Artwork of Indian Weapons; down the ages, or Indian Bladed Weapons; Mystical and Talismanic artwork. Or something similar so that the subject can have a full airing. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

21st January 2017, 06:32 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Please see; http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/p...talismans.html I have selected this North Indian design as it struck me that its circular pattern was reminiscent of the large disc atop Tulvar Pommels ..It is typically in Indian script and follows the geometry of such weapons ...whilst conveniently it is part of a treatise on Talismanic detail. Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 21st January 2017 at 08:05 PM. Reason: correction

30th October 2016, 04:01 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jens, Firstly, Thank You for making your catalogue available! I have not yet got my copy. When you started this thread, I wondered if you meant the flower (phool) or the disc decoration. Quite a few years ago, I recall our discussions on just this subject, but am afraid I recall it imperfectly now. I am quite sure however that the gist we agreed upon, was that the flower (on Hindu arms) was not merely decorative, but to attract the attention of a deity for some purpose, Or to symbolise the same. I know poppies are associated with a certain deity, but do not remember which at present! Poppies are a very common theme in hilt decoration, as are Lotus buds. For some reason, fishes as decoration appear to be limited to katars, and this may seem odd to others besides myself! Fishes/Vishnu or one of the associated incarnations of the same deity never (never??) seem to appear on sword hilts. I will have to do some looking and thinking on this interesting subject Jens. It has been off the back-burner for a Long time!

1st November 2016, 02:59 AM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Salaams Ibrahiim, I thought when I wrote 'never' it would bring something to light! Thank you for the link to that spectacular thread. The tulwar you show here is very different in decoration to any I have seen before. Very well done and possibly unique. Thank you for this! Richard.

1st November 2016, 05:30 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I think we will have to see the 'flower' decorations in two steps. The Phool is to my oppinion more orientated to a place/clan/sub clan and so on. As it is likely that the different clans, maybe of the same religion would use the same Phool. It can sometimes be a bit difficult to know which clan/sub clan belonged together, as they had differrent names. The other flower decoration, the one on the hilt, is also somewhat orientated to a place, but far more to a fashion - to when it was made. This leads me to warn you that some of the decorations were made on far older weapons. The old decoration stripped off, and a new decoration started a new era of the weapon.

21st January 2017, 06:04 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	As an example of the apparent depth of the puzzle surrounding Daro Shikoh I refer here to the odd situation of his portrait portfolio at http://www.academia.edu/7202804/The_...interpretation Quote''Most of the paintings can be fitted into a preconceived scheme, although the precise purpose of the flower paintings is not yet quite clear. The significant numbers of religious figures and both Hindu and Muslim ascetics of various persuasions obviously reflect Dara Shikoh’s early interest in religion and philosophy. Two Hindu yogis who form a pair by themselves are of earlier date than the rest of the album and these paintings have been enlarged to fit in. This is the only instance of paired ascetics in the album. The prince we know from his writings was interested in Hindu philosophy from his youth, although he did not write about it until the late 1640s. He also studied the Hindu philosophical system of the Vedanta and produced a Persian translation of the Sanskrit Upanishads, while one of his later books compares the two mystical philosophies of the Vedanta and Sufism ''Unquote. Although the reference draws a secondary conclusion based on the artwork it may be important to note that he was very much a believer in the Mystic aspects of life then...and it is worth looking at the floral clues on weaponry for a link. On the other hand it could turn out as a general statement that Daro Shikoh whilst fascinated by the arts, that this was entirely co incidental and that sword hilts..and possibly other weapons were simply painted to a set of known designs and that no such mystic based link prevailed. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.