help with identity & origin

not2sharp · 20th February 2006, 09:44 PM

Quote:

I have been seeing straight or curved yataghans having the same characteristics of hilt,scabbard and even the blade in the last few weeks, many more than all I saw in last years.

How can we even begin to gage the age of this example?

n2s

erlikhan · 20th February 2006, 09:56 PM

It must be quiet new. Every single part of it,and its decorations can be made with better quality,more logical by historical culture facts and for cheap prices today.So can it be antique?

mavi1970 · 21st February 2006, 04:39 AM

me again... nobody's feelings have been hurt, especially not mine, but in this case i think you might be incorrect. the age of this example is not a cheap reproduction, i have seen new copies, which i also have come across, and those are quite crude in manufacture. but this sword with its detail, does not exude any newness to it, even the brass work does not have the marks of electric devices. even the scabbard with amount of mold and decay on the wood inside can not be something copied recently. its not a matter of being new, just how old I guess which is my question. Or could it be an old sword where the horn was replaced to make the sword look more exotic in years past, I dont know. I guess thats something that can never be known.

not2sharp · 21st February 2006, 05:30 AM

Quote:

I guess thats something that can never be known.

Can you post a more detailed set of photos? Including some closeup photos/scans of the metalwork on the blade, hilt, and mounts.

n2s

ham · 21st February 2006, 05:42 AM

Gentlemen,

As noted by various members above, yatagans were indigenous to a number of areas in the Ottoman Empire, and were still carried in isolated ones until as late as WWII; it has been observed by some ethnographers even later, in fact.
A straight or curved blade seems a matter of personal taste, one finds them in greater or lesser numbers throughout the Empire; it is not the best indicator of origin. The "jaw" marks struck in pairs on the blade at least suggest E. Europe. The large,stepped ears however, point to the Balkans. The wheel motifs chiselled on the blade are found from Hungary down through European Turkey. The embossed and engraved brasswork on hilt and scabbard are typical of Albanian, or Arnavut, work-- it is comparable with that found on the so-called rattail pistols of that region.
For these reasons, it probably is Albanian or from closeby. And an excellent example of the type incidentally, probably made between 1850-1890.

Sincerely,

Ham

Valjhun · 21st February 2006, 08:54 AM

My personal opinion is, that it is a modern copy. Why? Just like Erlikhan said + I can add:
- Defintely not Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro. Far too poor quality and totally different manufacture
- Verry poor looking
- Really too much of them on ebay recently

In case it is original, wich again I sincerely doubt it is, like ham said, an albanian piece.

erlikhan · 21st February 2006, 09:25 AM

The blade itself can be old too,no problem with that.There can be a simple, undecorated old yatagan blade,even with a damaged hilt. That old blade can have its original scabbard wreck with old wood too. We see hundreds of them. They can be upgraded chiselling the blade, making a new hilt, covering the scabbard with new leather, silver or brass etc. A skillful metal artist doesnt have to use modern production methods to make such upgrades, and he must not use them. Look at the chiselling on the blade. it is too shallowly chiselled into the steel and drawn with no or very little attention.If an artist of Ottoman time did that work, he would have to look for a new job in a short time. There are many masters who would do much better even in today's souvenir focused traditional arts production centers like Syria,Iran or Gaziantep in Turkey and would not cost much.The easiest way possible to restore an old blade in a rich looking illusion. The scabbard's brass or copper work is like that too. Doesn't reflect the quality and nobility of past's skills at all. It tries to give a rich impression as if too much effort and care was spent to produce it,but in fact the reverse.

TVV · 21st February 2006, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by not2sharp

How can we even begin to gage the age of this example?

n2s

Good point. I find it hard to judge the quality of the workmanship from the pictures posted: they are a bit too dark to allow details to be seen. Yataghans that I have handled always exhibit a 5 mm hardened edge? Does this one have it?

Flavio · 21st February 2006, 05:07 PM

Hello, this is ended. What do you think about this?

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

TVV · 21st February 2006, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

Hello, this is ended. What do you think about this?

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

Considering the patina on the brass band on the hilt, the scabbard appears to be a recent replacement. Another suspect thing is the six pointed star. I think there was a discussion on this symbol:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=star+david

I am sure the rest will add more comments, but to me this appears as an old yataghan with a recently (and poorly) embellished blade and a new scabbard, or maybe even only the hilt was genuinely old.

Valjhun · 21st February 2006, 09:14 PM

I have exactly the same opinion as thatone ( btw almost the same), or a lot of other similar pieces: Bosnia-Montenegro 19th century piece. I do not like the scabbard too, thou. That star maybe indicates that the owner was a jew, if that's the case it is more Bosnia than Montenegro.

erlikhan · 21st February 2006, 10:46 PM

The koftgari on the blade is original. David's star is original too and was always used by Ottomans and perhaps other Muslims of the period as a talisman.Was prefered by pirates and any kind of warriors for good fortune and wealth. The hilt is original with copper bands/corals (or coral imitating red glass beads??). The white metal scabbard is later but hard to decide if a simple period restoration or a modern one. The chiselling with the tulip drawing is pure Turkish according to me . Such simple decoration is often seen on not expensive antique samples as well. Nice. I wish the seller knew English or tried to market it internationally

mavi1970 · 22nd February 2006, 03:44 AM

i took a few more pictures of this sword, but again with my digital camera, its the best i can do. and the indentations of the "eye lashes" as they are called are deep 1 - 2.5 mm, including the 6 dots , 3 per side of the lashes.

ariel · 25th February 2006, 03:49 PM

Going back to the origial Yataghan in this discussion thread: here is another one just like that.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Straight-Bl...QQcmdZViewItem

Any food for thought? Personally, I do not believe it is a modern replacement just something we do not know much about.....

21st February 2006, 05:42 AM	#5
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, As noted by various members above, yatagans were indigenous to a number of areas in the Ottoman Empire, and were still carried in isolated ones until as late as WWII; it has been observed by some ethnographers even later, in fact. A straight or curved blade seems a matter of personal taste, one finds them in greater or lesser numbers throughout the Empire; it is not the best indicator of origin. The "jaw" marks struck in pairs on the blade at least suggest E. Europe. The large,stepped ears however, point to the Balkans. The wheel motifs chiselled on the blade are found from Hungary down through European Turkey. The embossed and engraved brasswork on hilt and scabbard are typical of Albanian, or Arnavut, work-- it is comparable with that found on the so-called rattail pistols of that region. For these reasons, it probably is Albanian or from closeby. And an excellent example of the type incidentally, probably made between 1850-1890. Sincerely, Ham Last edited by ham; 21st February 2006 at 06:22 AM.

21st February 2006, 08:54 AM	#6
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	My personal opinion is, that it is a modern copy. Why? Just like Erlikhan said + I can add: - Defintely not Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro. Far too poor quality and totally different manufacture - Verry poor looking - Really too much of them on ebay recently In case it is original, wich again I sincerely doubt it is, like ham said, an albanian piece. Last edited by Valjhun; 21st February 2006 at 09:30 AM.

21st February 2006, 09:14 PM	#11
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I have exactly the same opinion as thatone ( btw almost the same), or a lot of other similar pieces: Bosnia-Montenegro 19th century piece. I do not like the scabbard too, thou. That star maybe indicates that the owner was a jew, if that's the case it is more Bosnia than Montenegro. Attached Images Last edited by Valjhun; 21st February 2006 at 10:24 PM.

22nd February 2006, 03:44 AM	#13
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	i took a few more pictures of this sword, but again with my digital camera, its the best i can do. and the indentations of the "eye lashes" as they are called are deep 1 - 2.5 mm, including the 6 dots , 3 per side of the lashes. Attached Images

20th February 2006, 09:56 PM	#2
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	It must be quiet new. Every single part of it,and its decorations can be made with better quality,more logical by historical culture facts and for cheap prices today.So can it be antique?

21st February 2006, 04:39 AM	#3
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	me again... nobody's feelings have been hurt, especially not mine, but in this case i think you might be incorrect. the age of this example is not a cheap reproduction, i have seen new copies, which i also have come across, and those are quite crude in manufacture. but this sword with its detail, does not exude any newness to it, even the brass work does not have the marks of electric devices. even the scabbard with amount of mold and decay on the wood inside can not be something copied recently. its not a matter of being new, just how old I guess which is my question. Or could it be an old sword where the horn was replaced to make the sword look more exotic in years past, I dont know. I guess thats something that can never be known.

21st February 2006, 09:25 AM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	The blade itself can be old too,no problem with that.There can be a simple, undecorated old yatagan blade,even with a damaged hilt. That old blade can have its original scabbard wreck with old wood too. We see hundreds of them. They can be upgraded chiselling the blade, making a new hilt, covering the scabbard with new leather, silver or brass etc. A skillful metal artist doesnt have to use modern production methods to make such upgrades, and he must not use them. Look at the chiselling on the blade. it is too shallowly chiselled into the steel and drawn with no or very little attention.If an artist of Ottoman time did that work, he would have to look for a new job in a short time. There are many masters who would do much better even in today's souvenir focused traditional arts production centers like Syria,Iran or Gaziantep in Turkey and would not cost much.The easiest way possible to restore an old blade in a rich looking illusion. The scabbard's brass or copper work is like that too. Doesn't reflect the quality and nobility of past's skills at all. It tries to give a rich impression as if too much effort and care was spent to produce it,but in fact the reverse.

21st February 2006, 05:07 PM	#9
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello, this is ended. What do you think about this? http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

21st February 2006, 10:46 PM	#12
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	The koftgari on the blade is original. David's star is original too and was always used by Ottomans and perhaps other Muslims of the period as a talisman.Was prefered by pirates and any kind of warriors for good fortune and wealth. The hilt is original with copper bands/corals (or coral imitating red glass beads??). The white metal scabbard is later but hard to decide if a simple period restoration or a modern one. The chiselling with the tulip drawing is pure Turkish according to me . Such simple decoration is often seen on not expensive antique samples as well. Nice. I wish the seller knew English or tried to market it internationally

25th February 2006, 03:49 PM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Going back to the origial Yataghan in this discussion thread: here is another one just like that. http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Straight-Bl...QQcmdZViewItem Any food for thought? Personally, I do not believe it is a modern replacement just something we do not know much about.....