Scottish Skean Dhu

rickystl · 15th October 2016, 09:40 PM

Yes. That's it. Good illistration.

Pukka Bundook · 16th October 2016, 05:30 AM

Good illustration, but only the top half of the hilt should show (at the most)
Wearing it as illustrated above would likely get it lost when walking..

Norman McCormick · 16th October 2016, 07:20 PM

Hi,
Probably it should not show at all as it is a Black Knife (hidden knife) and would only be on show in the stocking top when in company as a show of good faith i.e. you can see my knife so I'm not about to do anything with it I shouldn't while in your company!
This is one interpretation of the origins of the Sgian Dhu when a small utility knife was the only 'weapon' allowed during the English banning of wearing and bearing arms in some parts of Scotland and how it came to be worn in the stocking top.
Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 16th October 2016, 07:39 PM

Learning

.

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2016, 07:48 PM

Actually I believe that traditionally, the skean dubh would have been entirely concealed in the stocking. As told in the familiar lore of Scotland, or as I was told, these hidden knives came about with the Scottish practice of always being well armed even in the most everyday situations. It was customary however to put down your arms in visits or meeting situations as a sign of truce or peaceful interaction.

That was until the fateful events at Glencoe, when clansmen in a weeklong visit and trustingly disarmed, were cruelly massacred by their hosts in a well planned and deceitful act.

After this, while giving up the bulk of his arms, the clansman kept a sort of back up weapon in his stocking, the small but deadly knife, skean dubh,
In Gaelic, the term skean =knife and dubh, has often been taken to mean black.
However in its more common simile, it actually means 'dark' or more directly, hidden. Therefore it is a 'hidden' knife.
By the same token, in Gaelic, the famed "Black Watch" regiment actually began as a covert 'undercover' unit used by the British to patrol Highland regions and maintain control. Therefore the eventual sobriquet for the regiment when formalized was not for black or somber toned apparel but the 'hidden' purpose of its formation.

In my own surname, in Gaelic, MacDhubghaill, means, son of the 'dark' foreigner, therefore unclear origins

or so family lore goes .

Norman.....we crossed posts!!!!

I remain curious on the 'jimping' or notching along the blade at the back, often I think on dirks as well. I think this was for the utility purposes in many cases....scaling fish?

Norman McCormick · 16th October 2016, 08:18 PM

Hi Jim,
Hope you are well these days and still travelling. On the subject of the Black Watch, my mother always called the distinctive Black Watch tartan "A Government Tartan" and always with sarcasm and disdain in her voice. I'm not sure exactly why as on her side of the family we were/are Lowland Scots/Ulster Irish and therefore probably on the side of the Govt., but possibly not always with the expected degree of commitment. Way back the regiment, I believe, was used to implement Govt policy and naturally this would have given rise to a certain dislike and I presume this dislike was passed down the generations.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2016, 10:19 PM

Just got back from Arizona and 4 months on the road as we traded in the old bookmobile for a new one (still not enough room for all these books!).
Will sit tight through winter then off again.
Thank you for the insight on this stuff, always great to share this intriguing history.
My great grandparents were Highlanders as you know, and things I read from them spoke disdainfully as well on 'the govt' .
From all I have found most of the tartans were pretty contrived during the 1850s and the Sobieski's and Highland fad.
Despite the 'shady' beginnings , the 42nd established stellar record and traditions.......proud Scots.

Norman McCormick · 16th October 2016, 11:31 PM

Hi Jim,
Yes the tartan itself seemed to promote a prickly response and I suspect it was also the fact that it wasn't a 'true clan tartan' but contrived for a Govt force. Her own tartan, MacLaine of Lochbuie, is one of the more ancient and traditional tartans of which she was rightly proud. Her ire of course did not extend to the brave lads of the 42nd who were/are a formidable regiment with many of the recruits historically coming from our extended local area.
Regards,
Norman.

Battara · 17th October 2016, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I remain curious on the 'jimping' or notching along the blade at the back, often I think on dirks as well. I think this was for the utility purposes in many cases....scaling fish?

I thought this notching was for thumb placement, even on dirks starting from the early 19th century. Makes a better grip for the thumb so it won't slip as easily.

Pukka Bundook · 17th October 2016, 04:02 AM

Jim,

I think in the days of proscription, the sgian dubh was still carried inside the waistcoat as a hidden weapon. (Black= hidden as you suggest) After all, anything inside the hose is going to show!
I gather it was later, in the Highland revival that it began to be worn in the hose top, and showing.

Norman McCormick · 17th October 2016, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Jim,

I gather it was later, in the Highland revival that it began to be worn in the hose top, and showing.

Hi,
These days almost all "Scottishness" re dress etc can be traced back to Victorian embellishments and ideas made popular by Victoria and Albert and their fascination with Scotland. Even earlier Sir Walter Scott in his novels romanticised the idea of Scotland and all things Scottish but then again they were novels and a lot of them are still a good read today.
Regards,
Norman.

corrado26 · 17th October 2016, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

a lot of them are still a good read today.

This I must really agree with - I love these novels and have red them more than once
corrado26

15th October 2016, 09:40 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Yes. That's it. Good illistration.

16th October 2016, 05:30 AM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Good illustration, but only the top half of the hilt should show (at the most) Wearing it as illustrated above would likely get it lost when walking..

16th October 2016, 07:20 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, Probably it should not show at all as it is a Black Knife (hidden knife) and would only be on show in the stocking top when in company as a show of good faith i.e. you can see my knife so I'm not about to do anything with it I shouldn't while in your company! This is one interpretation of the origins of the Sgian Dhu when a small utility knife was the only 'weapon' allowed during the English banning of wearing and bearing arms in some parts of Scotland and how it came to be worn in the stocking top. Regards, Norman.

16th October 2016, 07:39 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Learning .

16th October 2016, 07:48 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Actually I believe that traditionally, the skean dubh would have been entirely concealed in the stocking. As told in the familiar lore of Scotland, or as I was told, these hidden knives came about with the Scottish practice of always being well armed even in the most everyday situations. It was customary however to put down your arms in visits or meeting situations as a sign of truce or peaceful interaction. That was until the fateful events at Glencoe, when clansmen in a weeklong visit and trustingly disarmed, were cruelly massacred by their hosts in a well planned and deceitful act. After this, while giving up the bulk of his arms, the clansman kept a sort of back up weapon in his stocking, the small but deadly knife, skean dubh, In Gaelic, the term skean =knife and dubh, has often been taken to mean black. However in its more common simile, it actually means 'dark' or more directly, hidden. Therefore it is a 'hidden' knife. By the same token, in Gaelic, the famed "Black Watch" regiment actually began as a covert 'undercover' unit used by the British to patrol Highland regions and maintain control. Therefore the eventual sobriquet for the regiment when formalized was not for black or somber toned apparel but the 'hidden' purpose of its formation. In my own surname, in Gaelic, MacDhubghaill, means, son of the 'dark' foreigner, therefore unclear origins or so family lore goes . Norman.....we crossed posts!!!! I remain curious on the 'jimping' or notching along the blade at the back, often I think on dirks as well. I think this was for the utility purposes in many cases....scaling fish?

16th October 2016, 08:18 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Jim, Hope you are well these days and still travelling. On the subject of the Black Watch, my mother always called the distinctive Black Watch tartan "A Government Tartan" and always with sarcasm and disdain in her voice. I'm not sure exactly why as on her side of the family we were/are Lowland Scots/Ulster Irish and therefore probably on the side of the Govt., but possibly not always with the expected degree of commitment. Way back the regiment, I believe, was used to implement Govt policy and naturally this would have given rise to a certain dislike and I presume this dislike was passed down the generations. My Regards, Norman.

16th October 2016, 10:19 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Just got back from Arizona and 4 months on the road as we traded in the old bookmobile for a new one (still not enough room for all these books!). Will sit tight through winter then off again. Thank you for the insight on this stuff, always great to share this intriguing history. My great grandparents were Highlanders as you know, and things I read from them spoke disdainfully as well on 'the govt' . From all I have found most of the tartans were pretty contrived during the 1850s and the Sobieski's and Highland fad. Despite the 'shady' beginnings , the 42nd established stellar record and traditions.......proud Scots.

16th October 2016, 11:31 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Jim, Yes the tartan itself seemed to promote a prickly response and I suspect it was also the fact that it wasn't a 'true clan tartan' but contrived for a Govt force. Her own tartan, MacLaine of Lochbuie, is one of the more ancient and traditional tartans of which she was rightly proud. Her ire of course did not extend to the brave lads of the 42nd who were/are a formidable regiment with many of the recruits historically coming from our extended local area. Regards, Norman.

17th October 2016, 04:02 AM	#10
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jim, I think in the days of proscription, the sgian dubh was still carried inside the waistcoat as a hidden weapon. (Black= hidden as you suggest) After all, anything inside the hose is going to show! I gather it was later, in the Highland revival that it began to be worn in the hose top, and showing.