Indian pseudoshashka

[Jim McDougall]

This is an intriguing scenario, these compellingly similar sabres sans guard and with the 'swans neck' type knuckleguard, along with vestigial tunkou.
However it begs the question, are these effectively a 'form' or simply a number of cross influenced variant examples.

The cases of swords which are seemingly a particular form except certain components are missing, may be intended as such, or possibly examples with have lost these components.

We have seen shamshirs and various 'Ottoman bulbous hilt' sabres which have no crossguard and have asked, were there occasions where individuals preferred a sword without a crossguard? As clearly many Central Asian sabres such as shashka have been in notable favor and use without guard, would that character be chosen in altering other sword forms? Why?

We have seen the cases of tulwars with the characteristic disc pommel missing, and asked, was it deliberately removed, or simply broken or lost?
It has seemed there have been numbers of such tulwars in Afghan regions and suggestions that these discs impaired the swordsmans hand in its use.

These sabres add another page to these curious anomalies, but in their case they are clearly made in their form deliberately. The vestigial tunkou seems to me a clear nod toward Ottoman influences; the swans neck guard reflects northern India tulwars of Rajasthan and of course Afghan paluoars; and the hilts themselves the shashka and like Central Asian types.

Rather than a distinct form of sword type, this seems more a case of variant which has occurred in some number and reflecting compiled influences. It will require more instances of examples with regional provenance to establish enough consistency to declare a unique category .

Obviously, an intriguing conundrum and interesting type worthy of continued research.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

TRY THIS!!

Deccan
sword
from
Vijayanagar

An unusual and rare form of South Indian sword from the Vijayanagar Empire Karnataka. The long sword blade fullered and slightly curved, possibly of European manufacture, a small makers stamp visible near the forte. Long steel blade mounts with fretted and pierced borders, the hilt of 'pistol grip' shape, steel furniture chiselled with geometric decoration(worn) and brass inlay, the ivory grips showing the great age of this sword. Dating to the 17th century.

(THE TECHNIQUE IN ENGINEERING THE KNUCKLE GUARD TO THE HILT SIMILAR TO #38 AND #43 ABOVE)

For more pictures see http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/rare-...om-vijayanagar

For The Vijayanagar Empire SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijayanagara_Empire

[Jim McDougall]

Well done Ibrahiim!!!
Somehow does the faceted bolster remind you of a 'Khyber knife' (Siliwar) ??

[Jim McDougall]

Continued research= Ibrahiim!!!
Noticed in your last entry, then revisited your post #43.......compelling!!!
In 43, this example is intriguing as it clearly has the 'sinha' or lion head which we associate with the hilt of the kastane. While the 17th century date is in my opinion somewhat optimistic as we remain unclear on the earliest occurrence of the sinha hilt on the kastane, this coupled with the example from Karnataka, does seem to place these in Deccani context.

The diplomatic and general tribal ties between the Deccan and northern India (Afghan) regions are well established, and as seen with certain hilt features such as with the paluoar, the cross influences between these regions also seem understandable.

Is it possible that the sinha/lion head became vestigially stylized in the knob like pommel of these northern versions? We might tenuously observe that line defining the lower outline of the 'knob' being almost a jaw line! in considering such zoomorphic context.

Also found in Pant (1980, p.113, fig. 293) the tulwar hilt known as 'Marwari'. In Pant's 'system' of hilt classifications, this one is claimed to be similar overall to the 'Delhishahi' and 'Aurengzebi' forms except in the case of the knuckleguard.
In the Marwari hilt, there is a distinctly represented swans head which has a dramatic turn back form.
While Marwar was a highly commercial region in Rajasthan, it would seem that its commerce would be well known in northern areas of India (incl Afghan regions).
These Marwar hilts, in addition to the turn back swans neck, had the knuckleguard with split or cut in the center.

I would note the 'Afghan military sword' which has its distinctive split guard also with turn back of this style, and similar to that seen on these curious hilts of OP.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Continued research= Ibrahiim!!!
Noticed in your last entry, then revisited your post #43.......compelling!!!
In 43, this example is intriguing as it clearly has the 'sinha' or lion head which we associate with the hilt of the kastane. While the 17th century date is in my opinion somewhat optimistic as we remain unclear on the earliest occurrence of the sinha hilt on the kastane, this coupled with the example from Karnataka, does seem to place these in Deccani context.

The diplomatic and general tribal ties between the Deccan and northern India (Afghan) regions are well established, and as seen with certain hilt features such as with the paluoar, the cross influences between these regions also seem understandable.

Is it possible that the sinha/lion head became vestigially stylized in the knob like pommel of these northern versions? We might tenuously observe that line defining the lower outline of the 'knob' being almost a jaw line! in considering such zoomorphic context.

Also found in Pant (1980, p.113, fig. 293) the tulwar hilt known as 'Marwari'. In Pant's 'system' of hilt classifications, this one is claimed to be similar overall to the 'Delhishahi' and 'Aurengzebi' forms except in the case of the knuckleguard.
In the Marwari hilt, there is a distinctly represented swans head which has a dramatic turn back form.
While Marwar was a highly commercial region in Rajasthan, it would seem that its commerce would be well known in northern areas of India (incl Afghan regions).
These Marwar hilts, in addition to the turn back swans neck, had the knuckleguard with split or cut in the center.

I would note the 'Afghan military sword' which has its distinctive split guard also with turn back of this style, and similar to that seen on these curious hilts of OP.

Hello Jim, indeed the hilt at #43 is interesting since it is Southern Indian from Tanjore. I am not sure we are looking at one form or several splinters of one form. It seems every court sword producer could and did make a variety of bling variants although in the Southern style there seems to be a constant in the way the knuckle guard joined the hilt...It does almost appear to be a zoomorphic, perhaps Yali form, or I thought possibly elephant apparently breathing out the knuckleguard and this is mirrored or at least similar in the way the Kastane is engineered.

I have identified several southern form weapons curiously similar in appearance to the shashqa and with the same join engineering knuckle guard to hilt...The trade proof is apparent across strata although one could be forgiven for making it up !! The Deccan was instrumental in the Poulouar form and coincidentally the Central Asian Bukharan exodus caused by the Russians in 1920 may have also pushed the Shashqa into Afghan areas thus fusing or influencing hilt style...Eastern style may also have entered Southern Indian design from the many trips by the Chinese to the region when Tipu Sultan was in power. Being awash with mercenaries from everywhere (including Central Asia) it need not be surprising that hybrids and variants sprang up in the Deccan.

Notwithstanding that confusion I am aware that two of the weapons although similar are called different names... The one is a bird head but the other is a pistol grip...therefor neither are technically Shashqa...because of the shape of the hilts and because they have knuckle guards. Could they both be court swords? This would possibly place them in the category ("Bling") Court Swords ...Southern India.

[Jim McDougall]

Superb comparisons!
I think what is most interesting here is becoming aware of the distinct link between the Afghan northwest and the Deccan, which may well account for the connection in weapon forms and styling in many cases.

Kurnool in India, now the State of Anhdra Pradesh, is situated in central India in proximity with the key locations of Hyderabad, Mysore, Bijapur, Adoni which are prevalent in Indian history. Our awareness of the Deccan has been remarkably advanced in recent times through the tenacity of the study of Indian arms scholars who have been able to define many arms within that designation.

Kurnool was once ruled by the Vijayanagara kings and later Pathan with Mughal rule through Aurengazeb from 1686. The incursions and subsequent rule of Pathans and the Afghan character of Kurnool as a princely state in the Deccan is reflected in virtually all of its rulers titled 'Khan'. This is of course the Turkic title used in Central Asia and Afghanistan.

The conduit between this Deccani state and Afghan regions to the northwest was Rajasthan in a loose geopolitical chart which would note the Mughal rule combined with Afghan elements. This may well account for the long stated instances of arms from the siege of Adoni removed to Bikaner in Rajasthan (1689), as well as the fact that Tipu Sultan of Mysore spoke Urdu, a language from the northwest, and his father ruled Hyderabad .

These are some of the factors which we may consider as we examine the curious similarities of these sabres with knuckleguard, shashka profile hilts and tunkou with Deccani attributed examples.

I must admit my understanding of the complex connections and history of these regions is admittedly not the strongest, and I would beg for corrections and input in that regard. However, I felt it important to bring these to attention here in the thread for further review.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

.... the Central Asian Bukharan exodus caused by the Russians in 1920 may have also pushed the Shashqa into Afghan areas thus fusing or influencing hilt style... Court Swords ...Southern India.

Undoubtedly the influx of the so-called : "basmatch" fighters from Central Asia into Afghanistan brought with it a quantity of local weapons.

But even before that, and for centuries, the border between the two was symbolic only. The entire North Afghanistan was and still is populated by Uzbeks and Tajiks, entire families happily resided both here and there, and caravans crossed Pyandj back and forth as often than Greyhound buses between Michigan and Ohio:-)

The so-called "Afghani military pseudoshashkas" appeared well before Russian Civil War and the ensuing communist takeover of Central Asia, and the "Bukharan pseudoshashkas" even earlier.

The above examples are even older.

I am just trying to hammer in the idea that we are talking about a distinct pattern and not a hodge-podge of random features accidentally thrown together, and Ibrahiim's examples just increase the critical mass above which that conclusion will be inescapable.

Clearly, this sword pattern existed in the South, but the inspiration must have come from the North ( tunkou). I suspect we are seeing here actual examples from both locations, but just do not have enough information on how to separate their individual origins...

We will, eventually. We have witnessed enough examples of total mysteries that were eventually solved in a span of 2-3 days. Remember Baluch/Sindh sabers with a peculiar pommel and wire-wrapped langet? :-)))

[Jim McDougall]

Well noted Ariel, and it seems pretty clear that swords of this type certainly date much farther back than these geopolitical events of the 20th century.
We have been discussing the weapons of Central Asia for so many years now, and your knowledge on these and the history of these regions has been quite nearly legion here, so your input is extremely important.

I think however, that the inclusion of numbers of weapons types and from various contexts with similar key features is helpful in investigating the many possibilities which present themselves in these conundrums. The examples Ibrahiim has been presenting give us good perspective as we consider many potential scenarios.
Not all discovery in such matters is entirely empirical, as was well expressed by Dr. Albert Szent-Gyorgyi;
" ...discovery is seeing what everybody else has seen,
and thinking what nobody else has thought".

I know that many times over the years, I have been taken to task for many of my ideas and theories in similar queries in discussions, often seen as fanciful or 'fantasy'. However I believe in testing every possibility regardless, and have always welcomed supported rebuttal which would remove them as required from material compiled toward effective resolution in these queries.

Indeed, some of our 'mysteries' here have been solved in a few days, many took years, and you and I have been here through most all of them! I often marvel at how much has been accomplished here in learning on these arms, and it is exciting to keep going.

We indeed will conquer this one as well.
On another note, on the Baluch/Sindh sabres.....which were these ?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In considering the Zoomorphic Elephant head and trunk forming the knuckleguard and how it is joined to the hilt ...I propose that the sword may be linked to those directly involved in the war elephant role... The sword is lightweight but effective perhaps as a secondary weapon thus it may be an Archers sword... or that of a pike-man seen on the elephants back... An Elephant Crew members sword !

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well noted Ariel, and it seems pretty clear that swords of this type certainly date much farther back than these geopolitical events of the 20th century.
We have been discussing the weapons of Central Asia for so many years now, and your knowledge on these and the history of these regions has been quite nearly legion here, so your input is extremely important.

I think however, that the inclusion of numbers of weapons types and from various contexts with similar key features is helpful in investigating the many possibilities which present themselves in these conundrums. The examples Ibrahiim has been presenting give us good perspective as we consider many potential scenarios.
Not all discovery in such matters is entirely empirical, as was well expressed by Dr. Albert Szent-Gyorgyi;
" ...discovery is seeing what everybody else has seen,
and thinking what nobody else has thought".

I know that many times over the years, I have been taken to task for many of my ideas and theories in similar queries in discussions, often seen as fanciful or 'fantasy'. However I believe in testing every possibility regardless, and have always welcomed supported rebuttal which would remove them as required from material compiled toward effective resolution in these queries.

Indeed, some of our 'mysteries' here have been solved in a few days, many took years, and you and I have been here through most all of them! I often marvel at how much has been accomplished here in learning on these arms, and it is exciting to keep going.

We indeed will conquer this one as well.
On another note, on the Baluch/Sindh sabres.....which were these ?

Hello Jim, Sindh Hyderabad ... I was just looking for the same detail ....Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21555