Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 13th October 2016, 04:12 AM   #1
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,195
Default

While without notes or references at moment, the 1853 as noted was somewhat in line with the later examples previously noted of regulation British blades.
The font and position of the ENFIELD stamp seems in line as well with correct British stamping. While not in character without year or government stamps, it does not seem the blade is not authentically British.
Jim McDougall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2016, 02:54 PM   #2
Marcus
Member
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 420
Default triple or is it quadruple negative?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
While not in character without year or government stamps, it does not seem the blade is not authentically British.
Parsing the sentence I think you believe it is British.
Marcus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2016, 08:40 PM   #3
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,195
Default

In retrospect, the sentence looks awkward
I think your thoughts are well reasoned Marcus, and there was considerable traffic of materials, including blades, outside government sanctioned means. Many blades etc for example are supposed to be marked ISD (India Stores Dept) but many are not.
I think this is a British blade .
Jim McDougall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2016, 06:31 AM   #4
Will M
Member
 
Will M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario
Posts: 394
Default

Yes an Enfield blade from a 1821 pattern British light or heavy cavalry sword. latest dates I've seen on these is 1848. The Enfield stampings are not perfect.
This photo the "Enfield" has been dinged. Photo of a British 1821p HC sword.
Possibly be a 1853p blade with unstopped fuller. Most 1853p swords were made by Mole, Reeves and early ones made in Germany and inspected at Liege with a crown/L/# on the ricasso. Enfield could not make enough swords at the time with the Crimean War in full gear.
Attached Images
  
Will M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2016, 04:13 PM   #5
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,195
Default

As far as I have known, the M1821 light and heavy cavalry trooper blades have a block ricasso and hollow ground blade, as seen in the picture. The blade OP in the paluoar seems to have the elliptical fuller which terminates at the ricasso area.
This elliptical fuller I believe is typical of M1853 blades and some of the later blades on British cavalry swords.
However, the M1853 cavalry sabre was the first to have the full tang (patented by Charles Reeves but Wilkinson also produced some under license from him). What was different about this tang was that rather than being inserted into grip, the grips were individual pieces sandwiched onto the tang.

This type of blade tang does not seem in accord with the hilt on this paluoar leaving a bit of a puzzle. The first of these type hilts by Wilkinson (1854) with Reeves also producing.
I have seen M1821 blades by Reeves which must have been about 1840s so the 1848 date seems possible for these as noted. The Reeves blades I saw were of the 'old' type block ricasso.

In a reference (Journal of Royal United Service Museum, Vol.42 #2, 1898, p.1148) it is noted that Enfield did not make swords around the time of Crimean War but that did begin producing some then. There were a good number from Germany (most I have seen were Kirschbaum) but Mole (also working with Wilkinson) produced some.
The problem with sword production in these times was mostly the stringent protocols on testing blades per regulations.

So my question is, why does this blade of apparent 1853 type have the old form tang (as it appears) and why the Enfield stamp? Could this be one of the prototypes of the M1853 produced at Enfield prior to the production using the new tang?
Then, why is this unusual blade on a paluoar?
The British were heavily involved in Afghanistan after the 1879 war in trying to maintain their strategic presence there, and were of course not only subsidizing the development of industry and military but certainly bringing in British materials and quite likely often covertly. When they began the creation of the factory in Kabul the idea was to produce British weapons with Afghan workers.
In discussions here over the years and with the research and paper done by Mahratt, some of the weapons created there are addressed. It does not seem implausible that an ENFIELD stamp might have been in use in Kabul in these endeavors, and that an imitation of the M1853 blade with old style tang might have resulted.

Perhaps this might explain this anomaly, and I hope my suggestion makes sense.

Last edited by Jim McDougall; 14th October 2016 at 04:28 PM.
Jim McDougall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2016, 05:47 PM   #6
Marcus
Member
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 420
Default Well then

This is going to be an interesting and challenging piece to write up.
Marcus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2016, 06:50 PM   #7
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,216
Default

will's sword's spine tarted up a bit so you can read it a bit better...
Attached Images
 
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2016, 02:24 AM   #8
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,195
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
This is going to be an interesting and challenging piece to write up.
Indeed it will.
The history of British regulation swords is tumultuous enough, without the complexity of Afghanistan and 'The Great Game' (highly recommend Peter Hopkirks book by this title) thrown into the mix.
That is what makes this paluoar so unique, with a blade in transitional circumstances either a prototype from Enfield just as the Crimean War loomed or a blade copied in British subsidized Afghan factory in Kabul.
As I mentioned, the font on this stamp seems correct for markings on blades of 19th c . as is placement. It may be a worn stamp supplied to these projects accounting for the degraded letter at the end.

Naturally these are just speculations on my part, but hopefully they might provide some ideas for further research toward a more accurately detailed account of this sword.

The use of British blades in native hilts is far from unusual, and the favor of the British light cavalry M1796 became legion in India. As a result of these blades being used remarkably successfully in native tulwars, the 'hatchet point' type blades remained in production for Indian cavalry sabres through the 19th century (long after superceded by the M1821 series) In fact even the stirrup hilt also remained in use as long.
Jim McDougall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2016, 06:45 AM   #9
Marcus
Member
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 420
Default Peter Hopkirks book

On page 142, reading more between flights in Paris airport.
Marcus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.