Origins of the Mandinka saber

Marcus · 8th October 2016, 03:55 PM

If we recognize a Sudanese Haladie, why not call these Mandinka Kattara?

Kubur · 8th October 2016, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus

If we recognize a Sudanese Haladie, why not call these Mandinka Kattara?

Because it's only Jim's opinion.

Jim McDougall · 8th October 2016, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Because it's only Jim's opinion.

Hi Kubur,
Thank you for the note, and very much agreed, the material I post is indeed my own opinion and based on the research and notes from years past as well as resources we are all pretty much familiar with .
I'm glad you pointed this out, as I always look forward to the opinions and findings of others pertaining to the topics I address. In my opinion

that is how we learn, I know I do, as others present different views, and if the supported data warrants, my opinion does adjust accordingly.

Concerning a term to describe these sabres, it is what we have long referred to in these pages as 'the name game'. I suppose in some sense one could call these a Manding kattara, but I would imagine that would bring some dissent as well as powerful debate.

Re: haladie
The Sudanese 'haladie' noted is of course known as the Syrian dagger (Stone, 1937) and was a weapon derived from the Rapjut double bladed madu and the mendicant versions. These most probably entered the Sudanese arsenal via the Mamluks out of Syria.
I am unclear on what language the term haladie derives from.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th October 2016, 10:18 PM

It seems to me that Mendinka is the perfect descriptive term for this form which is completely different including the huge paddle style to the very ornate scabbard with tooled leather and decorated flaps in squared geometric design arrangements hung as tassles...with a crude baldric arrangement crafted from leather plaited strands with miniature shields at the points where the sword is hung. The hilt is unique with a rounded brass pommel .. again uniquely tribal and very much the Mendinka mark.

p.s. A good deal of work went into the discussion on Haladie at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=57877

Jim McDougall · 8th October 2016, 10:49 PM

Another key point, the scabbards on these carry the familiar flared ends of the Sudanese kaskara, reflecting the transmission of the Omani hilts through those regions prior to trans Saharan networks to Mali and environs. Traffic from Zanzibar into the interior certainly would account for the diffusion of these weapons, just as the so called 'Zanzibar Sword' (Demmin, 1877; Burton 1885; Buttin 1933) was transmitted from Morocco (s'boula daggers) to Zanzibar.

The cross pollination of these weapons reflect the key importance of trade networks in the diffusion of these weapon forms across vast geography .

The name game is actually more a matter of preference for collectors in describing their pieces. For those concerned with the history and development of ethnographic forms it is best to elaborate and qualify terms, rather than try to classify broadly in a category.
As 'Manding sabre' these are instantly recognized, while trying to place them in 'kattara' heading would cause confusion (in my opinion).

TVV · 10th October 2016, 07:57 AM

Do we have any actual evidence of Omani traders reaching as far as the Western Sahel? Barth does not mention any Arabian traders as far as I recall, with the caravans all being led by Tuaregs or people from the Maghreb or Hausaland. Omani trading and slave raiding activity seems to have been limited to the Eastern African coast and to Central Africa. Considering how late the incursions into the Congo occurred, I am not sure how much time there was for the form to spread all the way to what is nowadays Mali (and completely skip the Eastern Sahel in the Process).

My personal hypothesis is that the Mandingo hilt form developed totally independently and locally. One can see similarities with some dagger hilts from Western Africa (the daggers themselves have not been studied properly, but this is probably another topic). I am attaching some for comparison: the blade is inserted into a cylindrical hilt without a guard, with a circular pommel. Some of the spherical pommels are not too dissimilar to brass pommels on Mandingo swords. The Mandingo sword hilt could be a simplified version of these dagger hilts.

The similarity with Omani hilts is only limited to the shape of the hilt, however, elements such as pommels and bands on the hilts of Mandingo swords and their absence on the Omani hilt suggest to me that we may be reaching in trying to link the two.

Regards,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 10th October 2016, 04:33 PM

Hi Teodor,
Very well made points, and agreed that often cases of trying to trace the developments of various forms can be tenuous as examining certain clues and nuances seek the possible origins of influences.

The key issue of that distinct scabbard flare has been an almost taunting factor to me as long as I have studied these swords of Africa. The fact that this feature appears as noted, almost invariably on the kaskaras of Sudan, but nowhere else in African sword scabbards....EXCEPT in Mali, with the Manding sabre.

So in these years, there has much speculation on what in the world this flared end means, and of course the most obvious suggestion is that it is the head of a crocodile (or snake would be also thought of as they are also seen in local motif in cases). I have seen notes of this feature on more ancient iconography which of course predates kaskara by more than centuries, but was on an edged weapon scabbard, but even this was inconclusive. I need to find the notes but it was I think a frieze of a king of Meroe with sword .

To me it seems that this notable feature is most likely meant to symbolize something, such as the crocodile head since such symbolism is of course key in the material culture and folk religions/traditions of these regional cultures. But why would it be present in Sudanese context, yet did not effect the sword cultures of the Sahara and beyond while blades, and many other characteristics did? Again, EXCEPT Mali .

In my comments on the possible influence of Omani traders on the Manding, I was inclear on the nature of that plausibility. I did not mean that Omani traders, in person, were present in these areas to the west and of course not as far as West Africa itself. What I meant is that the trade networks were the conduit in which influences are diffused, and these vast connections are relays where interactions carrying them take place.

To the Omani, these open hilt swords were primarily status oriented, much as the khanjhar daggers. That the importance of these swords was probably notably taunted to other traders in these networks must be strongly considered. While slaving was one of the key commodities as these networks moved from Zanzibar inland and northward, we cannot imagine that groups of slaves travelled such distances across the Sahara. However, as these routes entered various entrepots and centers goods etc were exchanged with the those of caravans from the west at these points, weapons and their forms etc. would catch the interest of those individuals.

It is agreed that the hilt on the dagger with cylindrical shape is compelling and seems to be of Cameroon style. But is this the result of such influences from the Manding swords, or a prototype? We cannot be sure without well provenanced examples which might provide some chronology. That there is a similarity cannot be denied, but from historical and developmental perspective we can only recognize that for face value.

The idea of independent evolution of the hilt form and styling as well as the mysterious scabbard flare in remarkably distant areas, yet profoundly keyed to two indigenous points seems almost as tenuous as the idea of direct influence.
We know that Omani infuences were 'relayed' via trade networks from Zanzibar originations and traversing African regions, via Sudan, thenceforth westward across the Sahara. One connecting point was Darfur. The most notable commonality in the nature of the trade of the caravans as well as this very region ....slaving. It was here, in my opinion, that the distinct scabbard feature (from the scabbards of kaskaras) confluence with the open hilt styling of the kattara, and these influences travelled westward.

The Omani swords with their distinct hilts, probably with curved blades, and seen with swaggering slave merchants as marks of power and prestige, may have been acquired by traders in the caravans. As they exchanged with other segments of the caravan networks, the power of the Darfur traders, here symbolized by their kaskara (with flared scabbard tip) , probably also were acquired by said traders.

Arriving in Mali, the routes were controlled by the key merchant class of the Manding. As they exchanged with the traders from the east, would it not seem likely that they may have been impressed by the profoundly status oriented swords of slave traders and merchants of Zanzibar and Darfur?
Keen leather workers, they may well have adopted the cylindrical open hilt and as they designed the symbol laden and handsome scabbards so notable on their sabres, and amalgamated the symbolic scabbard flare recalling that of the Darfur traders.

Teodor, thank you for carrying this topic to discussion where we can present and compare our views. I always look forward to other views and hope others will join in. The history of these various forms is fascinating, and its great to learn more as we look at these views.

All best regards
Jim

8th October 2016, 03:55 PM	#1
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	a Kattera by any other name If we recognize a Sudanese Haladie, why not call these Mandinka Kattara?

8th October 2016, 10:18 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	It seems to me that Mendinka is the perfect descriptive term for this form which is completely different including the huge paddle style to the very ornate scabbard with tooled leather and decorated flaps in squared geometric design arrangements hung as tassles...with a crude baldric arrangement crafted from leather plaited strands with miniature shields at the points where the sword is hung. The hilt is unique with a rounded brass pommel .. again uniquely tribal and very much the Mendinka mark. p.s. A good deal of work went into the discussion on Haladie at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=57877 Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 8th October 2016 at 10:38 PM.

10th October 2016, 07:57 AM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Do we have any actual evidence of Omani traders reaching as far as the Western Sahel? Barth does not mention any Arabian traders as far as I recall, with the caravans all being led by Tuaregs or people from the Maghreb or Hausaland. Omani trading and slave raiding activity seems to have been limited to the Eastern African coast and to Central Africa. Considering how late the incursions into the Congo occurred, I am not sure how much time there was for the form to spread all the way to what is nowadays Mali (and completely skip the Eastern Sahel in the Process). My personal hypothesis is that the Mandingo hilt form developed totally independently and locally. One can see similarities with some dagger hilts from Western Africa (the daggers themselves have not been studied properly, but this is probably another topic). I am attaching some for comparison: the blade is inserted into a cylindrical hilt without a guard, with a circular pommel. Some of the spherical pommels are not too dissimilar to brass pommels on Mandingo swords. The Mandingo sword hilt could be a simplified version of these dagger hilts. The similarity with Omani hilts is only limited to the shape of the hilt, however, elements such as pommels and bands on the hilts of Mandingo swords and their absence on the Omani hilt suggest to me that we may be reaching in trying to link the two. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

8th October 2016, 10:49 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Another key point, the scabbards on these carry the familiar flared ends of the Sudanese kaskara, reflecting the transmission of the Omani hilts through those regions prior to trans Saharan networks to Mali and environs. Traffic from Zanzibar into the interior certainly would account for the diffusion of these weapons, just as the so called 'Zanzibar Sword' (Demmin, 1877; Burton 1885; Buttin 1933) was transmitted from Morocco (s'boula daggers) to Zanzibar. The cross pollination of these weapons reflect the key importance of trade networks in the diffusion of these weapon forms across vast geography . The name game is actually more a matter of preference for collectors in describing their pieces. For those concerned with the history and development of ethnographic forms it is best to elaborate and qualify terms, rather than try to classify broadly in a category. As 'Manding sabre' these are instantly recognized, while trying to place them in 'kattara' heading would cause confusion (in my opinion).

10th October 2016, 04:33 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi Teodor, Very well made points, and agreed that often cases of trying to trace the developments of various forms can be tenuous as examining certain clues and nuances seek the possible origins of influences. The key issue of that distinct scabbard flare has been an almost taunting factor to me as long as I have studied these swords of Africa. The fact that this feature appears as noted, almost invariably on the kaskaras of Sudan, but nowhere else in African sword scabbards....EXCEPT in Mali, with the Manding sabre. So in these years, there has much speculation on what in the world this flared end means, and of course the most obvious suggestion is that it is the head of a crocodile (or snake would be also thought of as they are also seen in local motif in cases). I have seen notes of this feature on more ancient iconography which of course predates kaskara by more than centuries, but was on an edged weapon scabbard, but even this was inconclusive. I need to find the notes but it was I think a frieze of a king of Meroe with sword . To me it seems that this notable feature is most likely meant to symbolize something, such as the crocodile head since such symbolism is of course key in the material culture and folk religions/traditions of these regional cultures. But why would it be present in Sudanese context, yet did not effect the sword cultures of the Sahara and beyond while blades, and many other characteristics did? Again, EXCEPT Mali . In my comments on the possible influence of Omani traders on the Manding, I was inclear on the nature of that plausibility. I did not mean that Omani traders, in person, were present in these areas to the west and of course not as far as West Africa itself. What I meant is that the trade networks were the conduit in which influences are diffused, and these vast connections are relays where interactions carrying them take place. To the Omani, these open hilt swords were primarily status oriented, much as the khanjhar daggers. That the importance of these swords was probably notably taunted to other traders in these networks must be strongly considered. While slaving was one of the key commodities as these networks moved from Zanzibar inland and northward, we cannot imagine that groups of slaves travelled such distances across the Sahara. However, as these routes entered various entrepots and centers goods etc were exchanged with the those of caravans from the west at these points, weapons and their forms etc. would catch the interest of those individuals. It is agreed that the hilt on the dagger with cylindrical shape is compelling and seems to be of Cameroon style. But is this the result of such influences from the Manding swords, or a prototype? We cannot be sure without well provenanced examples which might provide some chronology. That there is a similarity cannot be denied, but from historical and developmental perspective we can only recognize that for face value. The idea of independent evolution of the hilt form and styling as well as the mysterious scabbard flare in remarkably distant areas, yet profoundly keyed to two indigenous points seems almost as tenuous as the idea of direct influence. We know that Omani infuences were 'relayed' via trade networks from Zanzibar originations and traversing African regions, via Sudan, thenceforth westward across the Sahara. One connecting point was Darfur. The most notable commonality in the nature of the trade of the caravans as well as this very region ....slaving. It was here, in my opinion, that the distinct scabbard feature (from the scabbards of kaskaras) confluence with the open hilt styling of the kattara, and these influences travelled westward. The Omani swords with their distinct hilts, probably with curved blades, and seen with swaggering slave merchants as marks of power and prestige, may have been acquired by traders in the caravans. As they exchanged with other segments of the caravan networks, the power of the Darfur traders, here symbolized by their kaskara (with flared scabbard tip) , probably also were acquired by said traders. Arriving in Mali, the routes were controlled by the key merchant class of the Manding. As they exchanged with the traders from the east, would it not seem likely that they may have been impressed by the profoundly status oriented swords of slave traders and merchants of Zanzibar and Darfur? Keen leather workers, they may well have adopted the cylindrical open hilt and as they designed the symbol laden and handsome scabbards so notable on their sabres, and amalgamated the symbolic scabbard flare recalling that of the Darfur traders. Teodor, thank you for carrying this topic to discussion where we can present and compare our views. I always look forward to other views and hope others will join in. The history of these various forms is fascinating, and its great to learn more as we look at these views. All best regards Jim