help with identity & origin

mavi1970 · 19th February 2006, 07:02 PM

thanks for your information, but i dont know if those would be classified as crosses, i wonder if something else?? I really dont think it would be a christian yataghan, i never heard of those.

ariel · 19th February 2006, 08:05 PM

As a matter of fact, I wanted to bid on it but, in the Olympic spirit " May the strongest one win".

It is an interesting one. Artzi had a similar one and thought it had some Eastern European roots because of the motives on the blade. Serbian? Bulgarian? I agree that the "crosses" have no religious significance: just artistic decoration. The handle is especially interesting: is it lost wax?

TVV · 19th February 2006, 09:32 PM

Nice and interesting yataghan, I was watching this one on eBay too. I do not think it is from Bulgaria, as the yatagans usually found in Bulgaria have curved blades. I thought straight blades are characteristic of Greek yataghans, aren't they?
Now how about the eyelashes marks? Where would they point to? To me it appears that this piece exhibits a mixture of styles from Greece and the Caucasus, which is not so surprising considering the chaos and movement of peoples within the Ottoman empire. Many Circassians were given lands in the Balkans by the Sultan in an attempt to provide a counterbalance to the Christians in an era, when nationalism and independence movements were on a rise.
Whatever it turns out to be, it is deffinitely a great and intriguing piece, congratulations.

erlikhan · 20th February 2006, 09:05 PM

My opinion will be quiet different. I have been seeing straight or curved yataghans having the same characteristics of hilt,scabbard and even the blade in the last few weeks(all on ebay), many more than all I saw in last years. The cast brass or copper? hilt and scabbard works look not beautiful but easy to make,cheap and crude to me, and I think it should have looked even more crude to wealthy people of the period,who used to order these swords for themselves. Much better samples of such brass or copper work can be and are done for not much money in all middle east, or Gaziantep town in Turkey. Much easier and cheaper than walrus,silver, or even horn ones. Plus the etching style on the blade is poor and unesthetical, and the saw stamps look unrelated and artifical. Such blades,even better ones are still produced not only in some centers in middle east ,but perhaps somewhere else too. I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, these are just my own opinions and what I feel and they can be totally wrong.

regards

not2sharp · 20th February 2006, 09:44 PM

Quote:

I have been seeing straight or curved yataghans having the same characteristics of hilt,scabbard and even the blade in the last few weeks, many more than all I saw in last years.

How can we even begin to gage the age of this example?

n2s

erlikhan · 20th February 2006, 09:56 PM

It must be quiet new. Every single part of it,and its decorations can be made with better quality,more logical by historical culture facts and for cheap prices today.So can it be antique?

mavi1970 · 21st February 2006, 04:39 AM

me again... nobody's feelings have been hurt, especially not mine, but in this case i think you might be incorrect. the age of this example is not a cheap reproduction, i have seen new copies, which i also have come across, and those are quite crude in manufacture. but this sword with its detail, does not exude any newness to it, even the brass work does not have the marks of electric devices. even the scabbard with amount of mold and decay on the wood inside can not be something copied recently. its not a matter of being new, just how old I guess which is my question. Or could it be an old sword where the horn was replaced to make the sword look more exotic in years past, I dont know. I guess thats something that can never be known.

TVV · 21st February 2006, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by not2sharp

How can we even begin to gage the age of this example?

n2s

Good point. I find it hard to judge the quality of the workmanship from the pictures posted: they are a bit too dark to allow details to be seen. Yataghans that I have handled always exhibit a 5 mm hardened edge? Does this one have it?

Flavio · 21st February 2006, 05:07 PM

Hello, this is ended. What do you think about this?

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

20th February 2006, 09:05 PM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	My opinion will be quiet different. I have been seeing straight or curved yataghans having the same characteristics of hilt,scabbard and even the blade in the last few weeks(all on ebay), many more than all I saw in last years. The cast brass or copper? hilt and scabbard works look not beautiful but easy to make,cheap and crude to me, and I think it should have looked even more crude to wealthy people of the period,who used to order these swords for themselves. Much better samples of such brass or copper work can be and are done for not much money in all middle east, or Gaziantep town in Turkey. Much easier and cheaper than walrus,silver, or even horn ones. Plus the etching style on the blade is poor and unesthetical, and the saw stamps look unrelated and artifical. Such blades,even better ones are still produced not only in some centers in middle east ,but perhaps somewhere else too. I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, these are just my own opinions and what I feel and they can be totally wrong. regards Last edited by erlikhan; 20th February 2006 at 09:48 PM.

19th February 2006, 07:02 PM	#1
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	thanks for your information, but i dont know if those would be classified as crosses, i wonder if something else?? I really dont think it would be a christian yataghan, i never heard of those.

19th February 2006, 08:05 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As a matter of fact, I wanted to bid on it but, in the Olympic spirit " May the strongest one win". It is an interesting one. Artzi had a similar one and thought it had some Eastern European roots because of the motives on the blade. Serbian? Bulgarian? I agree that the "crosses" have no religious significance: just artistic decoration. The handle is especially interesting: is it lost wax?

19th February 2006, 09:32 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Nice and interesting yataghan, I was watching this one on eBay too. I do not think it is from Bulgaria, as the yatagans usually found in Bulgaria have curved blades. I thought straight blades are characteristic of Greek yataghans, aren't they? Now how about the eyelashes marks? Where would they point to? To me it appears that this piece exhibits a mixture of styles from Greece and the Caucasus, which is not so surprising considering the chaos and movement of peoples within the Ottoman empire. Many Circassians were given lands in the Balkans by the Sultan in an attempt to provide a counterbalance to the Christians in an era, when nationalism and independence movements were on a rise. Whatever it turns out to be, it is deffinitely a great and intriguing piece, congratulations.

20th February 2006, 09:56 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	It must be quiet new. Every single part of it,and its decorations can be made with better quality,more logical by historical culture facts and for cheap prices today.So can it be antique?

21st February 2006, 04:39 AM	#7
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	me again... nobody's feelings have been hurt, especially not mine, but in this case i think you might be incorrect. the age of this example is not a cheap reproduction, i have seen new copies, which i also have come across, and those are quite crude in manufacture. but this sword with its detail, does not exude any newness to it, even the brass work does not have the marks of electric devices. even the scabbard with amount of mold and decay on the wood inside can not be something copied recently. its not a matter of being new, just how old I guess which is my question. Or could it be an old sword where the horn was replaced to make the sword look more exotic in years past, I dont know. I guess thats something that can never be known.

21st February 2006, 05:07 PM	#9
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello, this is ended. What do you think about this? http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...e=STRK:MEWA:IT