My Java keris

David · 1st October 2016, 04:40 PM

Welcome to the forum Johan. I can certainly understand why your head would be spinning for your various sources of information and you are wise to suspect that there is a lot of misleading or outright false information to be found out there on these marvelous blades. And then many things are simply a matter of differences of opinion or belief systems that can't ever truly be settled. My best advice to you would be to take some time searching our archives where you will find all these various opinions, along with a few cold, hard facts, living in residence.

As for your first keris, we could certainly use some larger photos, but they do seem relatively sharp and clear. From what i can see it is indeed an antique keris from Jawa. If you posted photos of the sheath and the hilt we good even place it, dress wise, in a more specific area of that island. I can't really see the pamor pattern very well in these pictures, but the blade looks a bit out of stain anyway so even better photos might not give us a clear answer.

Johan van Zyl · 2nd October 2016, 12:09 PM

Thank you so much David. I will certainly do what you suggest, and start to build a kind of "book of facts" concerning this keris. I am very thankful that I managed to get hold of this one in the undamaged condition it is. The warangka however had separated from the gandar-pendok unit and I have re-attached same by merely using glue. It's nice and firm now.
The first of my various suspicions that I will try to confirm, is that there is no nickel-containing layers in this blade, which means that the blade will not show contrast, and that various iron layers (besides the steel core) are the only types of metal used in the crafting of this blade. Secondly, I am hoping that the layering in this blade and the combination of the layering will eventually lead to a decision on the era (tangguh) out of which this keris originated. Thirdly, I have provisionally established the pamor pattern as mlumah, because the lamination is parallel to the flat surface of the blade.
I am hoping that my improved pics will help all you experienced guys out there to kindly comment further on this wonderful item that has come into my possession. I'm starting with one or two that I have, but others will have to be re-taken.
Johan

Johan van Zyl · 2nd October 2016, 12:55 PM

I really trust these pics are a bit better....
Johan

Sajen · 2nd October 2016, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johan van Zyl

I really trust these pics are a bit better....
Johan

It would be really helpful when you would show the complete keris inside the scabbard and a picture similiar the last one in this post from the blade but show the blade complete and maybe a little bit bigger. Welcome to the forum!

Regards,
Detlef

David · 2nd October 2016, 06:00 PM

Thanks for the additional photos Johan. I would second Detlef's photo requests though.
This actually looks like a fairly decent old keris. Again, it is difficult to tell the pamor pattern without seeing this blade in full warangan stain, but i suspect the pattern might possibly be Sada Saler or perhaps one of the adeg (standing) pamor patterns.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd October 2016, 10:14 PM

Based upon what I can presently see I am inclined to place this keris as North Coast, and towards the west. We do need to see full length images in order to place the origin of the complete keris.

The blade alone I also think is North Coast, towards the west. The blumbangan is boto rubuh, and that pretty much eliminates Central Jawa and (probably) most of East Jawa, additionally the ron dha is a bit outside acceptable parameters for Central Jawa and most of East Jawa. The pamor is an adeg pamor, maybe adeg sapu, but probably safer just to give it as adeg, which makes it pamor miring.

Not a bad old keris, and in nice condition.

Rick · 2nd October 2016, 10:32 PM

A nice older keris; and I do think you have contrasting shades of metal there.

Welcome Johan.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd October 2016, 11:11 PM

Oh yes, I didn't mention the nickel question.

Many old Javanese keris do not contain nickel, but that does not mean that the pamor has no contrast. The contrast is provided by "white iron" = high phosphorus content iron. This white iron was a local product and was not suitable for tool or weapon production, so it was combined with the more expensive irons, mostly imported, to provide a usable product, the end result being pamor. This type of pamor does not jump up and bite you, like 19th century Bali pamor, but there is nearly always a sufficient degree of contrast to allow it to be clearly seen.

2nd October 2016, 12:09 PM	#2
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Thank you so much David. I will certainly do what you suggest, and start to build a kind of "book of facts" concerning this keris. I am very thankful that I managed to get hold of this one in the undamaged condition it is. The warangka however had separated from the gandar-pendok unit and I have re-attached same by merely using glue. It's nice and firm now. The first of my various suspicions that I will try to confirm, is that there is no nickel-containing layers in this blade, which means that the blade will not show contrast, and that various iron layers (besides the steel core) are the only types of metal used in the crafting of this blade. Secondly, I am hoping that the layering in this blade and the combination of the layering will eventually lead to a decision on the era (tangguh) out of which this keris originated. Thirdly, I have provisionally established the pamor pattern as mlumah, because the lamination is parallel to the flat surface of the blade. I am hoping that my improved pics will help all you experienced guys out there to kindly comment further on this wonderful item that has come into my possession. I'm starting with one or two that I have, but others will have to be re-taken. Johan Attached Images

2nd October 2016, 12:55 PM	#3
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	I really trust these pics are a bit better.... Johan Attached Images

2nd October 2016, 06:00 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Thanks for the additional photos Johan. I would second Detlef's photo requests though. This actually looks like a fairly decent old keris. Again, it is difficult to tell the pamor pattern without seeing this blade in full warangan stain, but i suspect the pattern might possibly be Sada Saler or perhaps one of the adeg (standing) pamor patterns. Last edited by David; 3rd October 2016 at 04:08 AM.

1st October 2016, 04:40 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Welcome to the forum Johan. I can certainly understand why your head would be spinning for your various sources of information and you are wise to suspect that there is a lot of misleading or outright false information to be found out there on these marvelous blades. And then many things are simply a matter of differences of opinion or belief systems that can't ever truly be settled. My best advice to you would be to take some time searching our archives where you will find all these various opinions, along with a few cold, hard facts, living in residence. As for your first keris, we could certainly use some larger photos, but they do seem relatively sharp and clear. From what i can see it is indeed an antique keris from Jawa. If you posted photos of the sheath and the hilt we good even place it, dress wise, in a more specific area of that island. I can't really see the pamor pattern very well in these pictures, but the blade looks a bit out of stain anyway so even better photos might not give us a clear answer.

2nd October 2016, 10:14 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Based upon what I can presently see I am inclined to place this keris as North Coast, and towards the west. We do need to see full length images in order to place the origin of the complete keris. The blade alone I also think is North Coast, towards the west. The blumbangan is boto rubuh, and that pretty much eliminates Central Jawa and (probably) most of East Jawa, additionally the ron dha is a bit outside acceptable parameters for Central Jawa and most of East Jawa. The pamor is an adeg pamor, maybe adeg sapu, but probably safer just to give it as adeg, which makes it pamor miring. Not a bad old keris, and in nice condition.

2nd October 2016, 10:32 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	A nice older keris; and I do think you have contrasting shades of metal there. Welcome Johan.

2nd October 2016, 11:11 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Oh yes, I didn't mention the nickel question. Many old Javanese keris do not contain nickel, but that does not mean that the pamor has no contrast. The contrast is provided by "white iron" = high phosphorus content iron. This white iron was a local product and was not suitable for tool or weapon production, so it was combined with the more expensive irons, mostly imported, to provide a usable product, the end result being pamor. This type of pamor does not jump up and bite you, like 19th century Bali pamor, but there is nearly always a sufficient degree of contrast to allow it to be clearly seen.