THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MOROCCAN AND A ZANZIBARI NIMCHA.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th September 2016, 10:59 AM

See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21926 on #14 where this additional detail posted by Ariel; Nimcha may be translated most accurately as "half" or "little half" , kind of Enlglish " shorty".
Per H.W. Bellew's "The races of Afghanistan" people of mixed ethnic origin or newly-converted Muslims whose adherence to Islam is still doubtful are referred as "nimchas".

Does the word Nimcha therefor mean those people (or the sword they carry) who are sort of half converts...or doubtful new converts... An interesting theory...noted. This would point to Baluchis from that region working as Mercenaries on the Zanj I assume.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th September 2016, 02:05 PM

I discovered a French view of the Nimcha more in terms of how it transferred around the Mediterranean than its Southern sister...viz; Quote''
Le Nimcha du Maghreb
Présentation du Nimcha par Jean-François Teulière
Le sabre des cavaliers du monde Arabe

Le nimcha est appelé « Saïf »dans le monde arabe. C’est un terme commun aux langues sémitiques (araméen) et à l’arabe.En arabe il désigne une lame courbe et en hébreu une lame droite. C’est le sabre des cavaliers du monde Arabe, dont la diffusion fut assurée par les conquêtes ainsi que par les relations commerciales entre les pays sous l’influence ou la domination orientale: Arabie, Yémen, Oman et sa dépendance Zanzibar, Maghreb et Espagne Maure.
Pour certains, la poignée à quillons et garde de main serait d’origine italienne ou plus précisément aurait été connue des Arabes vers les 15 ème – 16 ème siècles via le commerce Gênois. Cf.: « Robert Elgood Arms – 1994 »."Unquote.

I suspect that no one other than European sword collectors actually called this weapon a Nimcha and as the above passage suggests they called it a Saif...In the same way today people call pretty well everything that is a sword...Saif. here in Oman. I also agree that Oriental influence had a good deal to play in transmission of technology in the old days and commerce and war had a big hand in it...In that case it is virtually certain to have passed through certain conduits on its way and Genoa has to be considered...

Many weapons from the Genoan stable effected Moroccan style...It cannot be ruled out. It is an odd feeling however since I appear to be back at the startline in a race which feels it has been run to its finishing point but somehow I hear the order from Mr Starter... On your marks! ready! set !... Go!!!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th September 2016, 02:10 PM

By way of a summary here are the differences between A Moroccan and a Zanzibari Nimcha. It is obvious that the name is the same but any deeper into the reason is a conundrum and possibly a false impression simply applied and popularised by European sword collectors. On the other hand tracking through the possibilities certainly raises the awareness not least the post by Oliver Pinchot at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21926 where he notes the relationship with an article of clothing viz;

Quote"The term "Salawar" (also rendered salwar and shalvar,) was applied to these weapons because of its similarity to a type of breeches common in N. India, which are quite broad at the waist and taper continuously to the ankle. The analogy with the form of the blade is obvious.''Unquote.

and the bells ring here where I note the potential link to the waistcoat often worn by Baluch males (called a Nimcha) and where it is known they were the mercenaries on the Zanj to Saaid Sultan..AKA Saaid the Great, who among other battles these famous Baluch mercenaries and Persian Naval units wrestled Fort Jesus from the Portuguese and in addition were the guards with Burton and Speke into Central Africa...and potentially transmitters of the weapons name Nimcha to North Africa..I thus acknowledge the very interesting information and include it here.

Moroccan.
1. Stud on the pommel top holding or anchoring the hilt and blade. Invariably round but occasionally an elongated (one inch x a quarter inch) metal strip.
2. No D Guard.
3. Arabesque decoration to guard Quillons and/or pommel base ring in silver or gold. (Often mirrored by the scabbard decor) Occasionally clossoned or enamel.
4. Pommel turned only to about 90 degrees perhaps for a larger hand.
5. Knuckle Guard with distinct right angle or elbow bend occasionally with a small round inscribed stud shape about half way along.
6. Blade occasionally lavishly inscribed in silver or gold in Arabic.
7. Finials to guard and quillons ending in bud style.
8. Occasional two prong/piton incorporation to guard.
9. Blades either short almost cutlass form or longer, slender sometimes clipped. Many displaying Genoa bite marks often called Hogs Back or Eye Lash marks.
10. Scabbard with worked silver or gold decoration lavishly applied in Clossone, gold or silver arranged to hang from a shoulder strap/ Baldric.

Zanzibari.
1. Turtle shape on top of Pommel holding or anchoring the hilt and blade.
2. Occasional D Guard.
3. Plain guard and base ring without arabesque decoration on a plain hilt often in Rhino or Ivory and in some a gold roundel and leaf pattern decorative style apparently the same as on some East African combs. The hilts in either Rhino or Ivory often display at the "horses mouth" an apparent geometrical OVO shaped decorative style.
4. Pommel more turned than 90 degrees perhaps for a smaller hand.
5. Knuckle guard rounded. Plain; never enameled.
6. Blade usually either plain or of the Red Sea variety but not lavishly done in Arabic.
7. Finials usually of the dragon or Yali / Makara form sometimes with a capital R and dots to the Quilons and Knuckle Guard ends but not all as some finials are small budded form.
8. Occasional D Guards marked like the Knuckle Guard with a substantial X in the mid section of each however this weapon can appear with none of the complexity of guards/quilons/knuckle guard etc but with the simple cross guard only. (Butin Charts refer)
9. Blades never clipped, invariably cutlass short form.
10. Scabbards simple; often with Omani decoration of Swirls or circles to leather. Occasionally with silver furniture and chape. This weapon worn on the waist.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th September 2016, 12:55 PM

I cross reference a post here as; NIMCHA ... The Word.
From
Salaams Ariel... You are correct in several of your pointers to the peculiar name Nimcha apparently applied to the sword of Morocco and its sister from Zanzibar. The name used by locals in both regions is Sayf/Saif/Seyf. There are many questions or possibilities as to how the term Nimcha entered the equation not least that an enterprising sword collector "expert" gave the name and it stuck! because it "looked" the same.

Look at the previous post where it can be seen that apart from "a similar" hand grip the entire sword arrangement in both cases is chalk and cheese!
Regarding the Name Nimcha it is worth listing the possible reasons all of which hold water...for the Name; Nimcha;

1. Nim means half in Persian and Baluch. The connotation attached to the sword could mean half sword as applied also to half convert...meaning those half converts to Islam working among the Baluch on the Zanj in other words "the sword of the half converts".

2. The word Nimcha may mean blink of an eye to Moroccan people. ( This may be regional/ colloquial since they say blink of your eye in Morocco like this; ghamad ainak. )

3a. We know that military dress in the sub continent remained almost ancient until recently thus tie ups between apparel and weapons is common(and must be of antiquity) as per Oliver Pinchot's revelation about Salawar and the Pantaloon style of dress known in those regions and the dagger/sword. The sword being also wide at the throat and narrow at the tip...like the pants!

3b. In this case in referring to Nimcha, it is the waistcoat of Persian, Baluch and central Asian form for men... Uzbekistan has the word Nimcha meaning waistcoat...Half Jacket. The waistcoat worn by Baluchi Mercenaries may be a reference to those worn on the Zanj ~ Mercenaries of the Omani Sultans especially Saaid bin Sultan before and after his death in 1856. (ruled 1804 - 1856) In this case Nimcha being the sword worn by the Half Jackets...Nimcha.

4. The great explorers technically at least, may have transmitted the word from Zanzibar/Zanj to Central Africa since they accompanied Tipu Tib the great slave captain and explorers Burton and Speke thus linking into trans Saharan trade routes (Ivory/ Slaves/ Rhino) was likely.

5. Last but not least the whats in a word phenomena is entirely plausible though I admire the potential in the clothing link after all; naming parts or weapons after clothes also occurred with the hilt of the great Moroccan dagger One of the Khoumiya which took its name from A French Policemans Hat!! and there are many more.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th September 2016, 05:09 PM

Lets see who can nail this one first ...Full marks for a complete assessment...

additional marks if you put in a bibliography from forum !!! 3 references will suffice !!!

ariel · 30th September 2016, 06:08 PM

You want a "complete assessment"?
A long version or a short one?
OK, here is the long one :

" This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!! "

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th September 2016, 06:56 PM

Completely correct Ariel. No Points though; you copied it!...

VANDOO · 2nd October 2016, 05:53 AM

I AM ENJOYING THIS POST AS IT MAKES A GOOD REFERENCE FOR THIS TYPE OF SWORD. PERHAPS NOT ALL QUESTIONS CAN BE ANSWERED BUT MANY FACTS, OLD ARTICLES AND REFRENCES, THOUGHTS AND EXAMPLES ARE GATHERED HERE FOR EASIER ACCESS. AFTER ALL THAT IS BASICALLY ALL A REFERENCE IS. AS TO THE LAST ITEM THOUGH THERE IS LITTLE REMAINING OF THE SWORD AND ITS GLORY DAYS ARE LONG OVER. FOR A POOR MAN A LITTLE GLUE OR DUCT TAPE AND THIS PARROT THOUGH NO LONGER BEAUTIFUL COULD STILL PECK.

28th September 2016, 02:10 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	By way of a summary here are the differences between A Moroccan and a Zanzibari Nimcha. It is obvious that the name is the same but any deeper into the reason is a conundrum and possibly a false impression simply applied and popularised by European sword collectors. On the other hand tracking through the possibilities certainly raises the awareness not least the post by Oliver Pinchot at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21926 where he notes the relationship with an article of clothing viz; Quote"The term "Salawar" (also rendered salwar and shalvar,) was applied to these weapons because of its similarity to a type of breeches common in N. India, which are quite broad at the waist and taper continuously to the ankle. The analogy with the form of the blade is obvious.''Unquote. and the bells ring here where I note the potential link to the waistcoat often worn by Baluch males (called a Nimcha) and where it is known they were the mercenaries on the Zanj to Saaid Sultan..AKA Saaid the Great, who among other battles these famous Baluch mercenaries and Persian Naval units wrestled Fort Jesus from the Portuguese and in addition were the guards with Burton and Speke into Central Africa...and potentially transmitters of the weapons name Nimcha to North Africa..I thus acknowledge the very interesting information and include it here. Moroccan. 1. Stud on the pommel top holding or anchoring the hilt and blade. Invariably round but occasionally an elongated (one inch x a quarter inch) metal strip. 2. No D Guard. 3. Arabesque decoration to guard Quillons and/or pommel base ring in silver or gold. (Often mirrored by the scabbard decor) Occasionally clossoned or enamel. 4. Pommel turned only to about 90 degrees perhaps for a larger hand. 5. Knuckle Guard with distinct right angle or elbow bend occasionally with a small round inscribed stud shape about half way along. 6. Blade occasionally lavishly inscribed in silver or gold in Arabic. 7. Finials to guard and quillons ending in bud style. 8. Occasional two prong/piton incorporation to guard. 9. Blades either short almost cutlass form or longer, slender sometimes clipped. Many displaying Genoa bite marks often called Hogs Back or Eye Lash marks. 10. Scabbard with worked silver or gold decoration lavishly applied in Clossone, gold or silver arranged to hang from a shoulder strap/ Baldric. Zanzibari. 1. Turtle shape on top of Pommel holding or anchoring the hilt and blade. 2. Occasional D Guard. 3. Plain guard and base ring without arabesque decoration on a plain hilt often in Rhino or Ivory and in some a gold roundel and leaf pattern decorative style apparently the same as on some East African combs. The hilts in either Rhino or Ivory often display at the "horses mouth" an apparent geometrical OVO shaped decorative style. 4. Pommel more turned than 90 degrees perhaps for a smaller hand. 5. Knuckle guard rounded. Plain; never enameled. 6. Blade usually either plain or of the Red Sea variety but not lavishly done in Arabic. 7. Finials usually of the dragon or Yali / Makara form sometimes with a capital R and dots to the Quilons and Knuckle Guard ends but not all as some finials are small budded form. 8. Occasional D Guards marked like the Knuckle Guard with a substantial X in the mid section of each however this weapon can appear with none of the complexity of guards/quilons/knuckle guard etc but with the simple cross guard only. (Butin Charts refer) 9. Blades never clipped, invariably cutlass short form. 10. Scabbards simple; often with Omani decoration of Swirls or circles to leather. Occasionally with silver furniture and chape. This weapon worn on the waist. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 28th September 2016 at 08:21 PM.

30th September 2016, 12:55 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I cross reference a post here as; NIMCHA ... The Word. From Salaams Ariel... You are correct in several of your pointers to the peculiar name Nimcha apparently applied to the sword of Morocco and its sister from Zanzibar. The name used by locals in both regions is Sayf/Saif/Seyf. There are many questions or possibilities as to how the term Nimcha entered the equation not least that an enterprising sword collector "expert" gave the name and it stuck! because it "looked" the same. Look at the previous post where it can be seen that apart from "a similar" hand grip the entire sword arrangement in both cases is chalk and cheese! Regarding the Name Nimcha it is worth listing the possible reasons all of which hold water...for the Name; Nimcha; 1. Nim means half in Persian and Baluch. The connotation attached to the sword could mean half sword as applied also to half convert...meaning those half converts to Islam working among the Baluch on the Zanj in other words "the sword of the half converts". 2. The word Nimcha may mean blink of an eye to Moroccan people. ( This may be regional/ colloquial since they say blink of your eye in Morocco like this; ghamad ainak. ) 3a. We know that military dress in the sub continent remained almost ancient until recently thus tie ups between apparel and weapons is common(and must be of antiquity) as per Oliver Pinchot's revelation about Salawar and the Pantaloon style of dress known in those regions and the dagger/sword. The sword being also wide at the throat and narrow at the tip...like the pants! 3b. In this case in referring to Nimcha, it is the waistcoat of Persian, Baluch and central Asian form for men... Uzbekistan has the word Nimcha meaning waistcoat...Half Jacket. The waistcoat worn by Baluchi Mercenaries may be a reference to those worn on the Zanj ~ Mercenaries of the Omani Sultans especially Saaid bin Sultan before and after his death in 1856. (ruled 1804 - 1856) In this case Nimcha being the sword worn by the Half Jackets...Nimcha. 4. The great explorers technically at least, may have transmitted the word from Zanzibar/Zanj to Central Africa since they accompanied Tipu Tib the great slave captain and explorers Burton and Speke thus linking into trans Saharan trade routes (Ivory/ Slaves/ Rhino) was likely. 5. Last but not least the whats in a word phenomena is entirely plausible though I admire the potential in the clothing link after all; naming parts or weapons after clothes also occurred with the hilt of the great Moroccan dagger One of the Khoumiya which took its name from A French Policemans Hat!! and there are many more. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 30th September 2016 at 01:05 PM.

30th September 2016, 05:09 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Lets see who can nail this one first ...Full marks for a complete assessment... additional marks if you put in a bibliography from forum !!! 3 references will suffice !!! Attached Images

28th September 2016, 10:59 AM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21926 on #14 where this additional detail posted by Ariel; Nimcha may be translated most accurately as "half" or "little half" , kind of Enlglish " shorty". Per H.W. Bellew's "The races of Afghanistan" people of mixed ethnic origin or newly-converted Muslims whose adherence to Islam is still doubtful are referred as "nimchas". Does the word Nimcha therefor mean those people (or the sword they carry) who are sort of half converts...or doubtful new converts... An interesting theory...noted. This would point to Baluchis from that region working as Mercenaries on the Zanj I assume. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 28th September 2016 at 11:20 AM.

28th September 2016, 02:05 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I discovered a French view of the Nimcha more in terms of how it transferred around the Mediterranean than its Southern sister...viz; Quote'' Le Nimcha du Maghreb Présentation du Nimcha par Jean-François Teulière Le sabre des cavaliers du monde Arabe Le nimcha est appelé « Saïf »dans le monde arabe. C’est un terme commun aux langues sémitiques (araméen) et à l’arabe.En arabe il désigne une lame courbe et en hébreu une lame droite. C’est le sabre des cavaliers du monde Arabe, dont la diffusion fut assurée par les conquêtes ainsi que par les relations commerciales entre les pays sous l’influence ou la domination orientale: Arabie, Yémen, Oman et sa dépendance Zanzibar, Maghreb et Espagne Maure. Pour certains, la poignée à quillons et garde de main serait d’origine italienne ou plus précisément aurait été connue des Arabes vers les 15 ème – 16 ème siècles via le commerce Gênois. Cf.: « Robert Elgood Arms – 1994 »."Unquote. I suspect that no one other than European sword collectors actually called this weapon a Nimcha and as the above passage suggests they called it a Saif...In the same way today people call pretty well everything that is a sword...Saif. here in Oman. I also agree that Oriental influence had a good deal to play in transmission of technology in the old days and commerce and war had a big hand in it...In that case it is virtually certain to have passed through certain conduits on its way and Genoa has to be considered... Many weapons from the Genoan stable effected Moroccan style...It cannot be ruled out. It is an odd feeling however since I appear to be back at the startline in a race which feels it has been run to its finishing point but somehow I hear the order from Mr Starter... On your marks! ready! set !... Go!!!

30th September 2016, 06:08 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You want a "complete assessment"? A long version or a short one? OK, here is the long one : " This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!! "

30th September 2016, 06:56 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Completely correct Ariel. No Points though; you copied it!...

2nd October 2016, 05:53 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AM ENJOYING THIS POST AS IT MAKES A GOOD REFERENCE FOR THIS TYPE OF SWORD. PERHAPS NOT ALL QUESTIONS CAN BE ANSWERED BUT MANY FACTS, OLD ARTICLES AND REFRENCES, THOUGHTS AND EXAMPLES ARE GATHERED HERE FOR EASIER ACCESS. AFTER ALL THAT IS BASICALLY ALL A REFERENCE IS. AS TO THE LAST ITEM THOUGH THERE IS LITTLE REMAINING OF THE SWORD AND ITS GLORY DAYS ARE LONG OVER. FOR A POOR MAN A LITTLE GLUE OR DUCT TAPE AND THIS PARROT THOUGH NO LONGER BEAUTIFUL COULD STILL PECK.