Yataghan or Flyssa?

Jim McDougall · 26th September 2016, 06:19 PM

Outstanding discourse here!!! and on some of the most intriguing and perplexing edged weapons as far as development in the ethnographic spectrum. I really enjoy the detail and historical facts presented by Ariel and Ibrahiim which helps better understand the factors in play.

It is interesting that these items Wayne noted were 'essentially' both 'yataghans', at least in the often bizarre classifications with which terms have become attached to certain weapons.

At first it seemed odd to see a 'Khyber knife' and North African 'flyssa' (?) presented together.
Then we realize that the 'Khyber' (hardly a 'knife') and the North African sword which reveals the notable similarities between early Ottoman yataghans and Kabyle flyssa......may be almost in a somewhat Freudian pairing. Here are two sword forms which really are not what they are said to be, at least 'by the numbers' and limitations of classifying terms.

Why the Afghan 'siliwar' (sic) which became known as a Khyber 'knife' became termed 'siliwar yataghan' is anybodys guess. Not only is it NOT a knife, but most certainly NOT a yataghan, by definition. Could the term 'yataghan' have had earlier, or in some language loopholes, the broader used term for edged weapon where knives and swords shared the same word?

The Kabyle flyssa has long been debated as to its origins. While the claims to ancient recurved Meditteranean swords such as falcata are tempting through free association, the lack of linear chronologically supporting exemplars are lacking. The Ottoman yataghan ancestry is far more likely in accord with the historical and physical properties.

As far as the OP example here, it does have compelling similarity to flyssa in some ways, with the cleft hilt pommel of course denoting Ottoman yataghan character. In Kabyle regions in Algeria, while never entirely subjugated by the Ottomans, the admiration of their weaponry was well known, hence the likely ancestry of the flyssa to the yataghan. In research years ago, we did find that in fact, young Kabyle men as a right of passage, sought to acquire 'their sword' as they entered manhood. While the flyssa was the locally traditional form, the Ottoman yataghan was a much desired sword even over the locally made swords.

Over the years we have seen many hybridized swords bearing features of both forms as well as other forms apparently from North African Berber regions.

The Crimean connection presented here by Ariel is also most interesting, and I would add to this another dimension to these 'deep bellied' recurved yataghan type swords with cleft pommel. In the Balkans in the latter 18th into 19th c. there was what I would regard as 'the Pandour phenomenon'.
As Balkan (typically Croatian) forces were amalgamated with Eastern Europeans in auxiliary units to the Austrian army in mid 18th c. and became known as 'pandours', they later became models for such units in Continental European armies.
These 'Pandour' units wore often almost outlandish 'oriental' fashions and used equally 'exotic' weaponry, primarily of Ottoman style including yataghans. There were many European officers using unusual hybrid types of these. I have seen hirschfanger type swords with these kinds of deep bellied recurved blades, stag horn grips with cleft, and often European type inscriptions, cyphers and ligatures on the blades.

We can see the dramatically diffused recurved blades of these yataghans in Europe, the Balkans and North Africa in these seemingly disparate cases, but it would appear that the Ottoman denominator would be the key factor.

Perhaps the very reason that the history of the development of these sword forms has so long had generally held complacency is due to the complexity which makes it so daunting. It is great to see our intrepid group advancing into these challenges! We have done it many times before over the years, and we are well on the way again!

Oliver Pinchot · 27th September 2016, 05:20 AM

The term "Salawar" (also rendered salwar and shalvar,) was applied to these weapons because of its similarity to a type of breeches common in N. India, which are quite broad at the waist and taper continuously to the ankle. The analogy with the form of the blade is obvious.

"Khyber knife" was coined by the British, for the first place they encountered Afghans armed with it.

"Karakulak" refers specifically to a short, heavy utility knife of yataghan form carried primarily by stock breeders in Anatolia. Karakulak means "black ear," as the grips were virtually always carved of dark horn.

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2016, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

The term "Salawar" (also rendered salwar and shalvar,) was applied to these weapons because of its similarity to a type of breeches common in N. India, which are quite broad at the waist and taper continuously to the ankle. The analogy with the form of the blade is obvious.

"Khyber knife" was coined by the British, for the first place they encountered Afghans armed with it.

"Karakulak" refers specifically to a short, heavy utility knife of yataghan form carried primarily by stock breeders in Anatolia. Karakulak means "black ear," as the grips were virtually always carved of dark horn.

This is outstanding information!!!
Perfect insight into the linguistic origins of some of these terms which became colloquialisms for certain weapons, first locally then expanding into broader use as 'collectors terms'.
It is most interesting that the use of 'silawar' (sic) has clearly been aligned comparatively with an item of clothing, which has been suggested in another case for the term 'nimcha' which may have its origin in Baluch colloquial language. Apparantly similar alignment for 'short' may have referred to the short waist jackets worn by Baluch men, as has been suggested by Ibrahim in the discussions on these swords now running.

Though some may regard these interesting details as trivialities, they add often profound dimension in following the diffusion and development of weapon forms and the cultures that used them.

Oliver Pinchot · 28th September 2016, 01:32 AM

To clarify:
The flyssa is particular to certain Algerian Berber groups; it is a local adaptation of the Ottoman yataghan. Yataghans which are much more closely recognizable as Ottoman in style (although with distinct characteristics) were used at urban centers such as Algiers and Tunis, where Ottoman influence dates from the early 16th century.

While all manner of weapons which can at least be loosely termed "Ottoman" were used throughout Greece, the yataghan was particularly well suited to the kind of fighting done there, i.e. guerillas operating on foot in difficult terrain. There is one distinctively Greek form of yataghan blade which is virtually straight, with a distinctive upturned tip; it is often hollowground and/or fullered. The form survives on the Cretan dagger. Mounts range from very simple to remarkably elaborate.

ariel · 28th September 2016, 04:36 AM

Nimcha may be translated most accurately as "half" or "little half" , kind of Enlglish " shorty".
Per H.W. Bellew's "The races of Afghanistan" people of mixed ethnic origin or newly-converted Muslims whose adherence to Islam is still doubtful are referred as "nimchas".

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th September 2016, 10:56 AM

Great thread all...I have learned more about this style of weapon in one page of discussion than any number of books could have provided ( books on specialised subjects of weapons arent very available in this part of the world)... Library is the winner and great input from all is thus rewarded... ...Interesting note from Ariel on Nimcha .. There was a specific tribe of Baluchi called Nimcha. It gets little recognition and may not be related to the Nimcha Sword. Further we have a great note from Ariel on this word Nimcha that I already have a section relating to it on another thread...In fact, I have taken the liberty of cross referencing this additional information and I hope that is OK...see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=2&pp=30 It could be that the word Nimcha is related to a conception that the wielders of this sword were half or newly converted to Islam and since they were potentially recruited for mercenary work on the Zanj... by the Omani Sultans that the word was borrowed to name the sword.. The Nimcha.

ariel · 28th September 2016, 12:50 PM

As per Elgood, Nim means half, and - cha is just a diminutive suffix.
Thus, anything "half-size" or of mixed origin may conceivably be dubbed nimcha, be it a short boarding sword, waistcoat, or a man of only partially" good blood". No need to postulate transference of ethnicity onto a style of the weapon or vice versa.

But a half-wit is a complete idiot, half full is in fact half empty and half-cooked chicken is just raw and likely loaded with E. Coli:-))

28th September 2016, 10:56 AM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Great thread all...I have learned more about this style of weapon in one page of discussion than any number of books could have provided ( books on specialised subjects of weapons arent very available in this part of the world)... Library is the winner and great input from all is thus rewarded... ...Interesting note from Ariel on Nimcha .. There was a specific tribe of Baluchi called Nimcha. It gets little recognition and may not be related to the Nimcha Sword. Further we have a great note from Ariel on this word Nimcha that I already have a section relating to it on another thread...In fact, I have taken the liberty of cross referencing this additional information and I hope that is OK...see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=2&pp=30 It could be that the word Nimcha is related to a conception that the wielders of this sword were half or newly converted to Islam and since they were potentially recruited for mercenary work on the Zanj... by the Omani Sultans that the word was borrowed to name the sword.. The Nimcha. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 28th September 2016 at 11:33 AM.

26th September 2016, 06:19 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Outstanding discourse here!!! and on some of the most intriguing and perplexing edged weapons as far as development in the ethnographic spectrum. I really enjoy the detail and historical facts presented by Ariel and Ibrahiim which helps better understand the factors in play. It is interesting that these items Wayne noted were 'essentially' both 'yataghans', at least in the often bizarre classifications with which terms have become attached to certain weapons. At first it seemed odd to see a 'Khyber knife' and North African 'flyssa' (?) presented together. Then we realize that the 'Khyber' (hardly a 'knife') and the North African sword which reveals the notable similarities between early Ottoman yataghans and Kabyle flyssa......may be almost in a somewhat Freudian pairing. Here are two sword forms which really are not what they are said to be, at least 'by the numbers' and limitations of classifying terms. Why the Afghan 'siliwar' (sic) which became known as a Khyber 'knife' became termed 'siliwar yataghan' is anybodys guess. Not only is it NOT a knife, but most certainly NOT a yataghan, by definition. Could the term 'yataghan' have had earlier, or in some language loopholes, the broader used term for edged weapon where knives and swords shared the same word? The Kabyle flyssa has long been debated as to its origins. While the claims to ancient recurved Meditteranean swords such as falcata are tempting through free association, the lack of linear chronologically supporting exemplars are lacking. The Ottoman yataghan ancestry is far more likely in accord with the historical and physical properties. As far as the OP example here, it does have compelling similarity to flyssa in some ways, with the cleft hilt pommel of course denoting Ottoman yataghan character. In Kabyle regions in Algeria, while never entirely subjugated by the Ottomans, the admiration of their weaponry was well known, hence the likely ancestry of the flyssa to the yataghan. In research years ago, we did find that in fact, young Kabyle men as a right of passage, sought to acquire 'their sword' as they entered manhood. While the flyssa was the locally traditional form, the Ottoman yataghan was a much desired sword even over the locally made swords. Over the years we have seen many hybridized swords bearing features of both forms as well as other forms apparently from North African Berber regions. The Crimean connection presented here by Ariel is also most interesting, and I would add to this another dimension to these 'deep bellied' recurved yataghan type swords with cleft pommel. In the Balkans in the latter 18th into 19th c. there was what I would regard as 'the Pandour phenomenon'. As Balkan (typically Croatian) forces were amalgamated with Eastern Europeans in auxiliary units to the Austrian army in mid 18th c. and became known as 'pandours', they later became models for such units in Continental European armies. These 'Pandour' units wore often almost outlandish 'oriental' fashions and used equally 'exotic' weaponry, primarily of Ottoman style including yataghans. There were many European officers using unusual hybrid types of these. I have seen hirschfanger type swords with these kinds of deep bellied recurved blades, stag horn grips with cleft, and often European type inscriptions, cyphers and ligatures on the blades. We can see the dramatically diffused recurved blades of these yataghans in Europe, the Balkans and North Africa in these seemingly disparate cases, but it would appear that the Ottoman denominator would be the key factor. Perhaps the very reason that the history of the development of these sword forms has so long had generally held complacency is due to the complexity which makes it so daunting. It is great to see our intrepid group advancing into these challenges! We have done it many times before over the years, and we are well on the way again!

27th September 2016, 05:20 AM	#2
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	The term "Salawar" (also rendered salwar and shalvar,) was applied to these weapons because of its similarity to a type of breeches common in N. India, which are quite broad at the waist and taper continuously to the ankle. The analogy with the form of the blade is obvious. "Khyber knife" was coined by the British, for the first place they encountered Afghans armed with it. "Karakulak" refers specifically to a short, heavy utility knife of yataghan form carried primarily by stock breeders in Anatolia. Karakulak means "black ear," as the grips were virtually always carved of dark horn.

28th September 2016, 01:32 AM	#4
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	To clarify: The flyssa is particular to certain Algerian Berber groups; it is a local adaptation of the Ottoman yataghan. Yataghans which are much more closely recognizable as Ottoman in style (although with distinct characteristics) were used at urban centers such as Algiers and Tunis, where Ottoman influence dates from the early 16th century. While all manner of weapons which can at least be loosely termed "Ottoman" were used throughout Greece, the yataghan was particularly well suited to the kind of fighting done there, i.e. guerillas operating on foot in difficult terrain. There is one distinctively Greek form of yataghan blade which is virtually straight, with a distinctive upturned tip; it is often hollowground and/or fullered. The form survives on the Cretan dagger. Mounts range from very simple to remarkably elaborate.

28th September 2016, 04:36 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Nimcha may be translated most accurately as "half" or "little half" , kind of Enlglish " shorty". Per H.W. Bellew's "The races of Afghanistan" people of mixed ethnic origin or newly-converted Muslims whose adherence to Islam is still doubtful are referred as "nimchas".

28th September 2016, 12:50 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As per Elgood, Nim means half, and - cha is just a diminutive suffix. Thus, anything "half-size" or of mixed origin may conceivably be dubbed nimcha, be it a short boarding sword, waistcoat, or a man of only partially" good blood". No need to postulate transference of ethnicity onto a style of the weapon or vice versa. But a half-wit is a complete idiot, half full is in fact half empty and half-cooked chicken is just raw and likely loaded with E. Coli:-))