Yataghan or Flyssa?

[ariel]

There was no "Greece" till 1821. Just as there was no Serbia, and no "Bulgaria" till 1908 ( in 1878 they got an autonomous state).
Integral bolsters were specific for Bulgarian karakulaks and Zeibek Yataghans. The rest had thin hollow bolsters similar to Afghani khybers. There are very few minor decorative features attributing yataghans to specific localities: all silver nielloed , small-eared Cretan, smooth round corals from Foca, karabela-like handles from North Africa... Blades were made everywhere, but mainly in Anatolia and Bosnia and sold en masse. Very few are signed with Christian names or Gregorian dates.


Kronckew's question is superficiously simple ( it is a yataghan, not a flyssa), but older flyssa did have a yataghan-like appearance, suggesting their origin.
And I am not surprised that Brits called Khybers Salavar (mutilated Selaava) Yataghans: many of them do have recurved blades. This begs a question.....:-))))

[kronckew]

wasn't really a question - what it was has not been in doubt with me, just the auction house. consider it rhetorical. along with the khyber i was having a small dig at the level of expertise. oddly they also sold in the same auction a number of 'yataghan' bayonets that sold for more than my yat did, so they are familiar with the term.

my khyber knife has a very slight but noticeable s-curve to the spine, not noticeable in it's photo but more apparent if you lay a yardstick on it.

it was referred to as a salawar yataghan in an earlier thread where i'd posted it by one of our esteemed colleagues here.

photo of my integral bolster karakulak yat/bulgarian shepherd's knife from a dealer in varna also attached for comparison.

[ariel]

I would just like to pour some gas on the fire :-))

Here is an old Flyssa with a relatively short blade that is close to yataghan's. It has an exteremely large and massive integral bolster and a pommel that is a crude but unmistakeable rendition of the karabela-like "eagle head" form so characteristic of North African yataghans. Spring in his book about African weapons refers to Flyssa's pommel as resembling animal head and mentions previous attempts to attribute it to eagles, ducks and dogs.
I would venture to support the " eagle" origin, although perhaps it is "bass ackward": it may be just a simplified karabela pattern that we read as resembling an eagle:-)

[ariel]

And if we are just at it, here are 2 Crimean sabers and a Quipchak knife of 12-14 centuries from archeological excavations by Ukrainian scientists. All predate Ottoman yataghans by at least 3 centuries.
Reminds you of something? :-)

And the last one is a yataghan of the last Crimean Khan , Shahin Giray bin Adil Giray, ( 18th century) faithfully following older Crimean examples shown here.

I do not have pics of the old Crimean bichaqs from 16-18 centuries, but their closeness to the neighbouring Bulgarian Karakulaks is remarkable.


The above archeological drawings are taken from a paper by Sergey Samgin and myself we recently published in the " Waffen - und Kostumkunde" 2016, Heft 1, pp.49-60, " A new hypothesis on the genesis of the Ottoman Yataghan: the Crimean connection" .


This article is copyrighted to the Journal and regretfully I cannot post it here.

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding discourse here!!! and on some of the most intriguing and perplexing edged weapons as far as development in the ethnographic spectrum. I really enjoy the detail and historical facts presented by Ariel and Ibrahiim which helps better understand the factors in play.

It is interesting that these items Wayne noted were 'essentially' both 'yataghans', at least in the often bizarre classifications with which terms have become attached to certain weapons.

At first it seemed odd to see a 'Khyber knife' and North African 'flyssa' (?) presented together.
Then we realize that the 'Khyber' (hardly a 'knife') and the North African sword which reveals the notable similarities between early Ottoman yataghans and Kabyle flyssa......may be almost in a somewhat Freudian pairing. Here are two sword forms which really are not what they are said to be, at least 'by the numbers' and limitations of classifying terms.

Why the Afghan 'siliwar' (sic) which became known as a Khyber 'knife' became termed 'siliwar yataghan' is anybodys guess. Not only is it NOT a knife, but most certainly NOT a yataghan, by definition. Could the term 'yataghan' have had earlier, or in some language loopholes, the broader used term for edged weapon where knives and swords shared the same word?

The Kabyle flyssa has long been debated as to its origins. While the claims to ancient recurved Meditteranean swords such as falcata are tempting through free association, the lack of linear chronologically supporting exemplars are lacking. The Ottoman yataghan ancestry is far more likely in accord with the historical and physical properties.

As far as the OP example here, it does have compelling similarity to flyssa in some ways, with the cleft hilt pommel of course denoting Ottoman yataghan character. In Kabyle regions in Algeria, while never entirely subjugated by the Ottomans, the admiration of their weaponry was well known, hence the likely ancestry of the flyssa to the yataghan. In research years ago, we did find that in fact, young Kabyle men as a right of passage, sought to acquire 'their sword' as they entered manhood. While the flyssa was the locally traditional form, the Ottoman yataghan was a much desired sword even over the locally made swords.

Over the years we have seen many hybridized swords bearing features of both forms as well as other forms apparently from North African Berber regions.

The Crimean connection presented here by Ariel is also most interesting, and I would add to this another dimension to these 'deep bellied' recurved yataghan type swords with cleft pommel. In the Balkans in the latter 18th into 19th c. there was what I would regard as 'the Pandour phenomenon'.
As Balkan (typically Croatian) forces were amalgamated with Eastern Europeans in auxiliary units to the Austrian army in mid 18th c. and became known as 'pandours', they later became models for such units in Continental European armies.
These 'Pandour' units wore often almost outlandish 'oriental' fashions and used equally 'exotic' weaponry, primarily of Ottoman style including yataghans. There were many European officers using unusual hybrid types of these. I have seen hirschfanger type swords with these kinds of deep bellied recurved blades, stag horn grips with cleft, and often European type inscriptions, cyphers and ligatures on the blades.

We can see the dramatically diffused recurved blades of these yataghans in Europe, the Balkans and North Africa in these seemingly disparate cases, but it would appear that the Ottoman denominator would be the key factor.

Perhaps the very reason that the history of the development of these sword forms has so long had generally held complacency is due to the complexity which makes it so daunting. It is great to see our intrepid group advancing into these challenges! We have done it many times before over the years, and we are well on the way again!

[Oliver Pinchot]

The term "Salawar" (also rendered salwar and shalvar,) was applied to these weapons because of its similarity to a type of breeches common in N. India, which are quite broad at the waist and taper continuously to the ankle. The analogy with the form of the blade is obvious.

"Khyber knife" was coined by the British, for the first place they encountered Afghans armed with it.

"Karakulak" refers specifically to a short, heavy utility knife of yataghan form carried primarily by stock breeders in Anatolia. Karakulak means "black ear," as the grips were virtually always carved of dark horn.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

The term "Salawar" (also rendered salwar and shalvar,) was applied to these weapons because of its similarity to a type of breeches common in N. India, which are quite broad at the waist and taper continuously to the ankle. The analogy with the form of the blade is obvious.

"Khyber knife" was coined by the British, for the first place they encountered Afghans armed with it.

"Karakulak" refers specifically to a short, heavy utility knife of yataghan form carried primarily by stock breeders in Anatolia. Karakulak means "black ear," as the grips were virtually always carved of dark horn.

This is outstanding information!!!
Perfect insight into the linguistic origins of some of these terms which became colloquialisms for certain weapons, first locally then expanding into broader use as 'collectors terms'.
It is most interesting that the use of 'silawar' (sic) has clearly been aligned comparatively with an item of clothing, which has been suggested in another case for the term 'nimcha' which may have its origin in Baluch colloquial language. Apparantly similar alignment for 'short' may have referred to the short waist jackets worn by Baluch men, as has been suggested by Ibrahim in the discussions on these swords now running.

Though some may regard these interesting details as trivialities, they add often profound dimension in following the diffusion and development of weapon forms and the cultures that used them.