Yataghan or Flyssa?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Can someone please outline the difference between a Turkish Yatagan and a Greek Yatagan? Is there a stamp on this blade?

[kronckew]

i read elsewhere here that the balkan ones, like my bulgarian one, have integral bolsters, where the turkish ones do not, having a seperate bolster that extends decoratively up the blade for a short bit. not sure abput that tho. i'm sure someone will comment.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

My assumption is that there is no difference but that it signifies generally Ottoman...or at the time Greece was a protectorate of the Ottoman Empire...

[ariel]

There was no "Greece" till 1821. Just as there was no Serbia, and no "Bulgaria" till 1908 ( in 1878 they got an autonomous state).
Integral bolsters were specific for Bulgarian karakulaks and Zeibek Yataghans. The rest had thin hollow bolsters similar to Afghani khybers. There are very few minor decorative features attributing yataghans to specific localities: all silver nielloed , small-eared Cretan, smooth round corals from Foca, karabela-like handles from North Africa... Blades were made everywhere, but mainly in Anatolia and Bosnia and sold en masse. Very few are signed with Christian names or Gregorian dates.


Kronckew's question is superficiously simple ( it is a yataghan, not a flyssa), but older flyssa did have a yataghan-like appearance, suggesting their origin.
And I am not surprised that Brits called Khybers Salavar (mutilated Selaava) Yataghans: many of them do have recurved blades. This begs a question.....:-))))

[kronckew]

wasn't really a question - what it was has not been in doubt with me, just the auction house. consider it rhetorical. along with the khyber i was having a small dig at the level of expertise. oddly they also sold in the same auction a number of 'yataghan' bayonets that sold for more than my yat did, so they are familiar with the term.

my khyber knife has a very slight but noticeable s-curve to the spine, not noticeable in it's photo but more apparent if you lay a yardstick on it.

it was referred to as a salawar yataghan in an earlier thread where i'd posted it by one of our esteemed colleagues here.

photo of my integral bolster karakulak yat/bulgarian shepherd's knife from a dealer in varna also attached for comparison.

[ariel]

I would just like to pour some gas on the fire :-))

Here is an old Flyssa with a relatively short blade that is close to yataghan's. It has an exteremely large and massive integral bolster and a pommel that is a crude but unmistakeable rendition of the karabela-like "eagle head" form so characteristic of North African yataghans. Spring in his book about African weapons refers to Flyssa's pommel as resembling animal head and mentions previous attempts to attribute it to eagles, ducks and dogs.
I would venture to support the " eagle" origin, although perhaps it is "bass ackward": it may be just a simplified karabela pattern that we read as resembling an eagle:-)

[ariel]

And if we are just at it, here are 2 Crimean sabers and a Quipchak knife of 12-14 centuries from archeological excavations by Ukrainian scientists. All predate Ottoman yataghans by at least 3 centuries.
Reminds you of something? :-)

And the last one is a yataghan of the last Crimean Khan , Shahin Giray bin Adil Giray, ( 18th century) faithfully following older Crimean examples shown here.

I do not have pics of the old Crimean bichaqs from 16-18 centuries, but their closeness to the neighbouring Bulgarian Karakulaks is remarkable.


The above archeological drawings are taken from a paper by Sergey Samgin and myself we recently published in the " Waffen - und Kostumkunde" 2016, Heft 1, pp.49-60, " A new hypothesis on the genesis of the Ottoman Yataghan: the Crimean connection" .


This article is copyrighted to the Journal and regretfully I cannot post it here.