Blunderbuss with Cork Mail markings

fernando · 14th September 2016, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It would be great to see some examples of these 'coach guns'...

Interesting question, Jim, starting by sorting it by either typology or coloquial terms ... or even by period.

What is precisely a coach gun ?
Does a coach gun have to be the blunderbuss type ?
Do navy blunderbusses have something to distinguish them from those used in coaches ... or those used afoot ... let alone the bronze barrel version ?

How would you classsify the following examples ?

.

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2016, 06:42 PM

Excellent questions Fernando! Thank you.
My use of the term 'coach gun' was inadvertent in this case, as that particular term was not coined until 1858 with the well known Wells Fargo & Co. stagecoaches. While popularly associated with 'riding shotgun' as to the guard with shotgun in the seat next to the driver, these guards were actually referred to as 'shotgun messengers' . An odd term, the message must have been, '...don't even think about it!"

The blunderbuss enigma is complicated by the fact that these odd early 'shotguns' were actually in varying forms closely related, with different terms and characters in degree. The most significant of course was the shorter barrel and flared bell muzzle . The 'musketoon' was a closely related type but I cannot specify exactly what the differences are.

While the blunderbuss originated around second half of 16thc.it did not become widely known until mid century 17th. Its use militarily seems sketchy until military pattern of 1715 was established. Even then, its use seems limited.
The use of these aboard vessels appears more substantiated, and examples often used the 'pintle' swivel strapping them to the deck rails to absorb some of the notable recoil. These so equipped were termed 'boat guns' .

While the use of brass/brnze barrel would presume naval use, that feature seems characteristic of many of these guns, most notably of course, the Royal Coach blunderbusses (and accompanying pistols). There are many examples of naval blunderbusses with iron barrel.

Naval use of blunderbusses appears to have faltered c. 1810, with general military use slightly after.
However, the Royal Coach mail were still ordering and using these through mid 19th c.

I think that classification of most of these guns would be better done by those here with firearms expertise and they would be likely denoted by ignition system (i.e. flintlock, miguelet etc.) and as mentioned, they may fall into musketoon type vs. blunderbuss.

Thank you Fernando for the questions and I hope this might bring more dialogue to this topic. There is clearly a lot to learn and most of what I have added is purely from on call research I did before writing .

machinist · 14th September 2016, 08:32 PM

Such a beautiful set of guns Fernando, thank you for posting them, they really brighten my day!
They look very stylistically from the peninsula, are there any you think are Portuguese ?

ChrisPer · 15th September 2016, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by machinist

Such a beautiful set of guns Fernando, thank you for posting them, they really brighten my day!
They look very stylistically from the peninsula, are there any you think are Portuguese ?

I have to agree, thank you Fernando. Can you tell us more about them?

fernando · 15th September 2016, 11:38 AM

Thsnk you machinist and thank you Cris.
Let me try and 'localize' them ...

#1. An early dog lock system, potentially made in Portugal around 1700.
#2. A luxury engraved example with a typical Portuguese lock, XVIII century.
#3. A miltary style example with a Miquelete lock, made in Spain, circa 1800.
#4. A rather rustic wound steel barrel specimen, with a salvaged Edge lock (1762), made in Portugal in the XVIII century.
#5. A short blunderbuss, with salvaged lock and barrel (Peninsular War), set up in regional Portugal.
#6. A Spanish trabuco with a percussion Miquelete lock, a Catalan stock and a salvaged John Clive barrel, first half XIX century.
#7. An Îtalian luxury 'Scavezzo', to be carried in coach door pockets, made in Brescia in the XVIII century.
#8. Another luxury blunderbuss, with a strong octogonal barrel, made in Portugal, end XVIII century.

Note; all provenances indicated are not categoric, only based on common sense; always susceptible to be corrected.

In a note to Jim i was trying, maybe without success, to evade the steryotypes without evading the fact that some guns are more suitable or even typical to use in coaches, this not necessarily being an exclusive attribution. Coach guns are, as i see, usually connected with Anglo American terminology, like those of Royal Mail and Wells Fargo, while i was wandering in a wider range, as these mail/passenger transport facilities (diligencias, malapostas, etc) were used all over. Thus my approach to be more on guns for coaches than coach guns, if youn catch my drift

.

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2016, 09:20 PM

Fernando, thank you for the clarification and especially the listed descriptions of these fantastic examples!

As you note, to determine which of these blunderbuss type guns were more adaptable or preferred for use on coaches is a good topic, but hard to place exactly as weapons were often diffused into service in many capacities as required. There do not seem to have been rigid standards or guidelines as to what the character or features of such 'specialized' arms might have had.

With the propensity for brass barrels it is unclear what purpose. Would such barrels better withstand the powerful effect of the blast of these guns? It is noted that walnut was always used as it had less chance of splinter or cracking, again, force of blast? These apparently had significant recoil, which in the case of naval types, the reason for the pinter swivel mount.

It would seem that for coach use (that is in the quasi official type such as with the mail coaches) that they were apparently produced by special order, and makers (Mortimer most predominant) vied for the favor of such orders.
Therefore their guns were highly finished as this was a prestigious business, and guards were highly paid relative to other occupations.

By the end of the coaches having the mail routes and giving way to rails and other delivery means about mid 19th c, these specialized guns of course were pretty much ended.
In America however, the Wild West began its own form of transport aside from the fledgling railways with Wells Fargo and other stage lines. As these carried not only passengers but mail and payrolls, the need for the 'shotgun' guards was clear.
As noted, the 'coach gun' was a double barrel shotgun, made specifically with shorter barrel and usually 12 guage.
In the famed 'Gunfight at the OK Corral' in 1881 in Tombstone, Arizona, Doc Holiday carried one of these 'coach guns' under his duster coat. This was apparently a 12 guage (some say 10 guage Moore &Co.) which Virgil Earp had grabbed from the Wells Fargo office as the group walked toward the site of the fabled event . Both he and Wyatt Earp had worked for Wells Fargo so he had easy access to the gun . With its shorter barrel it was easier to conceal.

Contrary to the British versions of 'coach' guns, most of these were not typically marked although many Wells Fargo guns were so marked. None had the hubris or status oriented phrases as the British ones.

Apparantly in Great Britain, the coach blunderbusses were usually accompanied by a brace of pistols, which also often had the muzzle end engraved with these phrases .

The use of blunderbusses or other weapons against the ever present problem of highwaymen in other countries is not as far as I have known as well documented or described as in Great Britain. It seems of course that any easily carried or concealed weapon would be pressed into service for such purposes, and the variation indeterminable.

Pukka Bundook · 16th September 2016, 02:04 PM

Dear Jim,

Re. your questions;
It's not that brass barrels were more able to cope with pressure, just that for coaching and exposed to all weathers, they didn't rust like iron tubes.
With these bores being short and wide, it isn't really a matter of pressure, but they still kicked when loaded with a good few pistol balls!

Walnut (European ) is stable and that is the main asset in stock -making. Strong and tough, but beech is better able to withstand splitting, (but not as nice to look at!)...........Butcher's blocks were beech mostly.
English coaching guns could be single barreled as well, built very lightly and short as you note. I always regret Not buying a Griffin coach -gun. It was about 14 bore with a cut-out stock.
These were often carried together with a boxed brace of pistols when traveling.
If a (single) butterfly sling swivel was fitted, it could mean coach use, or even horseback. These were attached at or near the rear sidenail.
Many old houses had one hanging behind the back door, complete with a note saying it was loaded. :-)
A wonderful and interesting old arm......and a very colourful history!!
I am a bit surprised that only one highwayman was documented as meeting his demise by this means, but maybe news traveled fast, even then!!

Best regards,
Richard.

14th September 2016, 06:42 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Excellent questions Fernando! Thank you. My use of the term 'coach gun' was inadvertent in this case, as that particular term was not coined until 1858 with the well known Wells Fargo & Co. stagecoaches. While popularly associated with 'riding shotgun' as to the guard with shotgun in the seat next to the driver, these guards were actually referred to as 'shotgun messengers' . An odd term, the message must have been, '...don't even think about it!" The blunderbuss enigma is complicated by the fact that these odd early 'shotguns' were actually in varying forms closely related, with different terms and characters in degree. The most significant of course was the shorter barrel and flared bell muzzle . The 'musketoon' was a closely related type but I cannot specify exactly what the differences are. While the blunderbuss originated around second half of 16thc.it did not become widely known until mid century 17th. Its use militarily seems sketchy until military pattern of 1715 was established. Even then, its use seems limited. The use of these aboard vessels appears more substantiated, and examples often used the 'pintle' swivel strapping them to the deck rails to absorb some of the notable recoil. These so equipped were termed 'boat guns' . While the use of brass/brnze barrel would presume naval use, that feature seems characteristic of many of these guns, most notably of course, the Royal Coach blunderbusses (and accompanying pistols). There are many examples of naval blunderbusses with iron barrel. Naval use of blunderbusses appears to have faltered c. 1810, with general military use slightly after. However, the Royal Coach mail were still ordering and using these through mid 19th c. I think that classification of most of these guns would be better done by those here with firearms expertise and they would be likely denoted by ignition system (i.e. flintlock, miguelet etc.) and as mentioned, they may fall into musketoon type vs. blunderbuss. Thank you Fernando for the questions and I hope this might bring more dialogue to this topic. There is clearly a lot to learn and most of what I have added is purely from on call research I did before writing .

14th September 2016, 08:32 PM	#3
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	Such a beautiful set of guns Fernando, thank you for posting them, they really brighten my day! They look very stylistically from the peninsula, are there any you think are Portuguese ?

15th September 2016, 11:38 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thsnk you machinist and thank you Cris. Let me try and 'localize' them ... #1. An early dog lock system, potentially made in Portugal around 1700. #2. A luxury engraved example with a typical Portuguese lock, XVIII century. #3. A miltary style example with a Miquelete lock, made in Spain, circa 1800. #4. A rather rustic wound steel barrel specimen, with a salvaged Edge lock (1762), made in Portugal in the XVIII century. #5. A short blunderbuss, with salvaged lock and barrel (Peninsular War), set up in regional Portugal. #6. A Spanish trabuco with a percussion Miquelete lock, a Catalan stock and a salvaged John Clive barrel, first half XIX century. #7. An Îtalian luxury 'Scavezzo', to be carried in coach door pockets, made in Brescia in the XVIII century. #8. Another luxury blunderbuss, with a strong octogonal barrel, made in Portugal, end XVIII century. Note; all provenances indicated are not categoric, only based on common sense; always susceptible to be corrected. In a note to Jim i was trying, maybe without success, to evade the steryotypes without evading the fact that some guns are more suitable or even typical to use in coaches, this not necessarily being an exclusive attribution. Coach guns are, as i see, usually connected with Anglo American terminology, like those of Royal Mail and Wells Fargo, while i was wandering in a wider range, as these mail/passenger transport facilities (diligencias, malapostas, etc) were used all over. Thus my approach to be more on guns for coaches than coach guns, if youn catch my drift .

15th September 2016, 09:20 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Fernando, thank you for the clarification and especially the listed descriptions of these fantastic examples! As you note, to determine which of these blunderbuss type guns were more adaptable or preferred for use on coaches is a good topic, but hard to place exactly as weapons were often diffused into service in many capacities as required. There do not seem to have been rigid standards or guidelines as to what the character or features of such 'specialized' arms might have had. With the propensity for brass barrels it is unclear what purpose. Would such barrels better withstand the powerful effect of the blast of these guns? It is noted that walnut was always used as it had less chance of splinter or cracking, again, force of blast? These apparently had significant recoil, which in the case of naval types, the reason for the pinter swivel mount. It would seem that for coach use (that is in the quasi official type such as with the mail coaches) that they were apparently produced by special order, and makers (Mortimer most predominant) vied for the favor of such orders. Therefore their guns were highly finished as this was a prestigious business, and guards were highly paid relative to other occupations. By the end of the coaches having the mail routes and giving way to rails and other delivery means about mid 19th c, these specialized guns of course were pretty much ended. In America however, the Wild West began its own form of transport aside from the fledgling railways with Wells Fargo and other stage lines. As these carried not only passengers but mail and payrolls, the need for the 'shotgun' guards was clear. As noted, the 'coach gun' was a double barrel shotgun, made specifically with shorter barrel and usually 12 guage. In the famed 'Gunfight at the OK Corral' in 1881 in Tombstone, Arizona, Doc Holiday carried one of these 'coach guns' under his duster coat. This was apparently a 12 guage (some say 10 guage Moore &Co.) which Virgil Earp had grabbed from the Wells Fargo office as the group walked toward the site of the fabled event . Both he and Wyatt Earp had worked for Wells Fargo so he had easy access to the gun . With its shorter barrel it was easier to conceal. Contrary to the British versions of 'coach' guns, most of these were not typically marked although many Wells Fargo guns were so marked. None had the hubris or status oriented phrases as the British ones. Apparantly in Great Britain, the coach blunderbusses were usually accompanied by a brace of pistols, which also often had the muzzle end engraved with these phrases . The use of blunderbusses or other weapons against the ever present problem of highwaymen in other countries is not as far as I have known as well documented or described as in Great Britain. It seems of course that any easily carried or concealed weapon would be pressed into service for such purposes, and the variation indeterminable.

16th September 2016, 02:04 PM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Dear Jim, Re. your questions; It's not that brass barrels were more able to cope with pressure, just that for coaching and exposed to all weathers, they didn't rust like iron tubes. With these bores being short and wide, it isn't really a matter of pressure, but they still kicked when loaded with a good few pistol balls! Walnut (European ) is stable and that is the main asset in stock -making. Strong and tough, but beech is better able to withstand splitting, (but not as nice to look at!)...........Butcher's blocks were beech mostly. English coaching guns could be single barreled as well, built very lightly and short as you note. I always regret Not buying a Griffin coach -gun. It was about 14 bore with a cut-out stock. These were often carried together with a boxed brace of pistols when traveling. If a (single) butterfly sling swivel was fitted, it could mean coach use, or even horseback. These were attached at or near the rear sidenail. Many old houses had one hanging behind the back door, complete with a note saying it was loaded. :-) A wonderful and interesting old arm......and a very colourful history!! I am a bit surprised that only one highwayman was documented as meeting his demise by this means, but maybe news traveled fast, even then!! Best regards, Richard.