THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MOROCCAN AND A ZANZIBARI NIMCHA.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Likely Zanzibar despite the cross guard although there are crossguards on some Nimcha at Butins plate 30 see charts at this thread.... We can not see the top of the pommel so not sure if the Turtle figure is intact but the hilt with a downward tilt to the pommel is certainly present. This is in the classic Butin form and shows the cross guard style. Zanzibar.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

So where is this form from and is the hilt related to the Somalian dagger hilt shown...? The Billao; A billao (Somali: billaawe), also known as a belawa, is a horn-hilted Somali shortsword. It served most notably as a close-quarters weapon in the Dervish State, at the turn of the 20th century.
The dagger has a double-edged, leaf-shaped, asymmetrical blade and a three-pronged pommel. One-pronged pommels with the metal tang protruding out from the center of the hilt

I place a Yemeni Nimcha variant on white background with silver in the Hilt for further comparison...Are they related?

The indications are that the project weapon is typical for a Saudia Arabian style with an all silvered hilt. Plate 30 Butin shows 1009 as being the same weapon which he simply calls Arabian.

[TVV]

Ibrahim, I personally am not so sure about the connection between the prongs on Hadramaut saifs and Somalian billaos. The three pronged billaos appear to be later, from the first half of the 20th century when Somalia was an Italian colony. The older, ivory hilted billaos I have only seen with one prong. Do you have a picture of a 3-pronged, older billao?

Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

I must admit that the similarity between these Somali and Hadhramati hilts is compelling, and the proximity with Arab trade routes as well adds to such plausibility. It is good food for thought deserving more examination and interesting idea looking into the number of prongs on the earlier billao.

Another interesting perspective is the prevalence of the trilobite pommel features, which include the 'karabela' type hilts (termed 'hawks head in Yemen I believe), as well as it seems other cultural forms such as the Tibetan hilt ke tri. In Tibet, one of the hilts attributed to Kham has three projections instead of the trilobite shape of the ke tri. I know this is only the popularly held term for the familiar Tibetan hilts but cannot think of the proper term (check LaRocca). In the attached image only two prongs appear but the third is missing (the spot where attached is visible).

It would seem that the three, whether trimurti or trinity and other views does occur symbolically in numbers of cases whether in actual elements or features of swords or markings etc. and these are often convergent in instance .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I must admit that the similarity between these Somali and Hadhramati hilts is compelling, and the proximity with Arab trade routes as well adds to such plausibility. It is good food for thought deserving more examination and interesting idea looking into the number of prongs on the earlier billao.

Another interesting perspective is the prevalence of the trilobite pommel features, which include the 'karabela' type hilts (termed 'hawks head in Yemen I believe), as well as it seems other cultural forms such as the Tibetan hilt ke tri. In Tibet, one of the hilts attributed to Kham has three projections instead of the trilobite shape of the ke tri. I know this is only the popularly held term for the familiar Tibetan hilts but cannot think of the proper term (check LaRocca). In the attached image only two prongs appear but the third is missing (the spot where attached is visible).

It would seem that the three, whether trimurti or trinity and other views does occur symbolically in numbers of cases whether in actual elements or features of swords or markings etc. and these are often convergent in instance .

Hello Jim, Thank you for your post; The 3 prong device on the pommel may well be something Talismanic as we know three dots appears as some sort of protection...It could be a reference to the three religions Islam Christianity and Judaism or a similar three in one protector as you point out (the fleur de lys is associated with that also) as I believe are the 3 bead structure on the Islamic bead string placed to prevent evil climbing up .On the hawkshead I'm afraid that was probably me... as not knowing Karabela at the time I wrongly stuck that name on those hilts that resembled hawks heads...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by TVV

Ibrahim, I personally am not so sure about the connection between the prongs on Hadramaut saifs and Somalian billaos. The three pronged billaos appear to be later, from the first half of the 20th century when Somalia was an Italian colony. The older, ivory hilted billaos I have only seen with one prong. Do you have a picture of a 3-pronged, older billao?

Teodor

Fair enough and perhaps I should have pointed out that it may not be clear which way the design flowed. Is it possible that the Somali dagger style with pronged hilt took that form from the Nimcha shown?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

On tracing back through Forum I spotted this picture below...What is the relationship if any with this weapon and the Nimcha ?
Note Genoa bite marks all down the backblade and the hint of something Zoomorphic in the hilt with an eye...Is this a horse head? Note the appearance of a nock at the top of the grip and the knuckle guard. This weapon is said to influence another; the Falceta Iberian weapon...Comments please?


See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11617

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Whilst members may be thinking about the question above I have noted the following website details of a Moroccan Nimcha...(I find it interesting and worthy of a note in the margin that the report refers to This large saber or nimcha at the very beginning whilst we have a suggestion earlier that Nimcha meant half sword. Perhaps this can be discussed later? In other words does Nimcha mean something else?)

please see http://www.musee-delacroix.fr/en/the...a/saber-nimcha from which I Quote"

This large saber or nimcha-a masculine accessory and symbol of tribe and rank-is one of the objects that Delacroix brought back from his trip to Morocco in 1832. The splendid weapons, musical instruments, textiles, and leather and ceramic items owned by the Musée Delacroix came from the collection of Charles Cournault (1815 - 1904), an Orientalist painter to whom Delacroix bequeathed most of his North African souvenirs.


The blade of the saber has three grooves. The manufacturer’s mark is perhaps visible under the hilt whose three quillons are decorated with a rosette motif inlaid with gold and silver threads in a cartouche. A floral and plant design runs around a copper ring encircling the hilt, and there is a beautiful marbled effect on the horn handle. The top of the leather scabbard is encircled by a velvet band on a leather background, onto which the straps for holding or hanging the saber are attached. Its lower part has a gold decoration featuring two floral elements, edged with a net design.
Delacroix’s trip to Morocco

In 1832, Eugène Delacroix traveled to Morocco with the diplomatic delegation of the Comte de Mornay, ambassador extraordinary from King Louis-Philippe to Sultan Moulay Abd-el-Rahman. His trip lasted from January to July, during which time he traveled from Tangiers to Meknes, visiting Algeria and southern Spain on his journey home. Delacroix was so delighted by his discovery of this place "made for painters" with its dazzling light and magical colors that between his return and his death he produced some 80 paintings with North African themes (plus countless sketches). His Oriental scenes, fantasias, military exercises, and portraits of Arabs include scrupulously rendered costumes and accessories: this type of nimcha saber with its hooked pommel, for example, is clearly recognizable near the Soldiers Sleeping in a Guardroom (watercolor, private collection), or hanging behind Chief Mohammed Ben Abu in Delacroix’s portraits of him in watercolor (private collection) and etching (Musée Delacroix)".Unquote.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I touched on the interesting puzzle surrounding the use of a Persian/Baluch word and thus the reflection of that word in describing the Moroccan Regional and Zanzibar Regional sword generally known as The Nimcha.
This thread shows similarities and differences in the weapon used in two distinctly different regions yet carrying the same name. The only actual real common denominator is the name! The blade, Hilt, Quillons, Guard and even how it is suspended plus the decoration and Scabbard are different. It is as if some one from each region copied a sword but added all the regional variety of style to their own version. In essence I suspect that is the message from the famous Butin Charts of Nimcha from these different locations.

Nimcha means half sword... It could mean short sword...but from Persian / Baluchi who had no contact between Zanzibar and Morocco~ or did they? Both Burton and Tipu Tib used Baluchi mercenaries as guards into and out of central Africa...in doing so the cross Saharan trade routes were at their beckoning thus the name/general style may have spread to Moroccan and North African neighbors of Morocco...or direct.

Another simple explanation cites the mispronunciation of another weapon...The Shamshiir...(Shamshir~ Nimcha) Anything is possible...

Could the name Nimcha mean something else such as sharp on one edge? Half Sword...Generally that could satisfy the same name being used on each sword...

Nimcha also means half jacket...actually a waistcoat commonly worn by Baluchis but is a word from the Uzbekistan region and straddling central Asia.

Is it possible that the sword's name spread because it was carried by Baluchi mercenaries (Nimcha; waistcoat wearers) employed by Omani rulers including Saiid bin Sultan all down the Zanj, Zanzibar, and in the service of the Sultans before and after Saiid's Reign in 1804 to 1856... and focused on Zanzibar from about 1830. See http://www.indiana.edu/~ctild/Centra...ry/Accessories and note Nimcha waistcoat picture...on a website looking at Turkic and Iranian dialect and lexicography..Baluchistan straddles two countries ...Iran and Pakistan.

The previous post notes that the sword is referred to as a large saber ...when if the word is meant to describe small(half) swords how can it be also be described as meaning large?

Given that it seems Morocco developed a sword of this nature before Zanzibar with that particular similar grip to the hilt; Which way did influence flow? Who could have transmitted style/form to the Indian Ocean? Actually there are many... There were big battle fleets in the Indian Ocean from Ottoman, Mameluke, Venetian and Portuguese in the 15th/16thC any one of which could be responsible for this transmission or War as a key pointer. It could have bounced off Indian designers and on to Zanzibar through trade...via any of the important sea trader families in the Indian Ocean. The same can be said about Omani influence; already illustrated by the sword at post #1 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15325 showing how the weapon had diffused to African countries probably through Zanzibar at least as far as Tunisia !!

The exact form of technical transfer may never be pinpointed, however, the common denominator appears to be Trade...and from what appears to be an original design concocted in the Mediterranean basin for which a strong indicator may be Italian ( Genoa may well be in the frame ) The other design indicator of the huge chopping blade is at #19 and #24 which points to a mixed stable of blade decorators and is difficult to tie down to a specific country but somewhere in the Central or Eastern Mediterranean...Italian or Ottoman?

Finally, is it plausible that the sword originally began in East Mediterranean centres diffused West to North African countries and South down the Red Sea to the Indian Ocean Zanzibar Regions but that its name rebounded from there to encompass the Moroccan Regional style absorbing the name Nimcha through some link with The Baluchi Mercenaries of Oman/Zanj and by trans North African trade routes? I therefor suggest War and Trade as being primary movers in this regard.

Your comments are invited..