THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MOROCCAN AND A ZANZIBARI NIMCHA.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

A strange sword with a hilt inspired by...?

[TVV]

What about this sword: Zanzibar, Yemen or the Maghreb?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Likely Zanzibar despite the cross guard although there are crossguards on some Nimcha at Butins plate 30 see charts at this thread.... We can not see the top of the pommel so not sure if the Turtle figure is intact but the hilt with a downward tilt to the pommel is certainly present. This is in the classic Butin form and shows the cross guard style. Zanzibar.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

So where is this form from and is the hilt related to the Somalian dagger hilt shown...? The Billao; A billao (Somali: billaawe), also known as a belawa, is a horn-hilted Somali shortsword. It served most notably as a close-quarters weapon in the Dervish State, at the turn of the 20th century.
The dagger has a double-edged, leaf-shaped, asymmetrical blade and a three-pronged pommel. One-pronged pommels with the metal tang protruding out from the center of the hilt

I place a Yemeni Nimcha variant on white background with silver in the Hilt for further comparison...Are they related?

The indications are that the project weapon is typical for a Saudia Arabian style with an all silvered hilt. Plate 30 Butin shows 1009 as being the same weapon which he simply calls Arabian.

[TVV]

Ibrahim, I personally am not so sure about the connection between the prongs on Hadramaut saifs and Somalian billaos. The three pronged billaos appear to be later, from the first half of the 20th century when Somalia was an Italian colony. The older, ivory hilted billaos I have only seen with one prong. Do you have a picture of a 3-pronged, older billao?

Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

I must admit that the similarity between these Somali and Hadhramati hilts is compelling, and the proximity with Arab trade routes as well adds to such plausibility. It is good food for thought deserving more examination and interesting idea looking into the number of prongs on the earlier billao.

Another interesting perspective is the prevalence of the trilobite pommel features, which include the 'karabela' type hilts (termed 'hawks head in Yemen I believe), as well as it seems other cultural forms such as the Tibetan hilt ke tri. In Tibet, one of the hilts attributed to Kham has three projections instead of the trilobite shape of the ke tri. I know this is only the popularly held term for the familiar Tibetan hilts but cannot think of the proper term (check LaRocca). In the attached image only two prongs appear but the third is missing (the spot where attached is visible).

It would seem that the three, whether trimurti or trinity and other views does occur symbolically in numbers of cases whether in actual elements or features of swords or markings etc. and these are often convergent in instance .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I must admit that the similarity between these Somali and Hadhramati hilts is compelling, and the proximity with Arab trade routes as well adds to such plausibility. It is good food for thought deserving more examination and interesting idea looking into the number of prongs on the earlier billao.

Another interesting perspective is the prevalence of the trilobite pommel features, which include the 'karabela' type hilts (termed 'hawks head in Yemen I believe), as well as it seems other cultural forms such as the Tibetan hilt ke tri. In Tibet, one of the hilts attributed to Kham has three projections instead of the trilobite shape of the ke tri. I know this is only the popularly held term for the familiar Tibetan hilts but cannot think of the proper term (check LaRocca). In the attached image only two prongs appear but the third is missing (the spot where attached is visible).

It would seem that the three, whether trimurti or trinity and other views does occur symbolically in numbers of cases whether in actual elements or features of swords or markings etc. and these are often convergent in instance .

Hello Jim, Thank you for your post; The 3 prong device on the pommel may well be something Talismanic as we know three dots appears as some sort of protection...It could be a reference to the three religions Islam Christianity and Judaism or a similar three in one protector as you point out (the fleur de lys is associated with that also) as I believe are the 3 bead structure on the Islamic bead string placed to prevent evil climbing up .On the hawkshead I'm afraid that was probably me... as not knowing Karabela at the time I wrongly stuck that name on those hilts that resembled hawks heads...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by TVV

Ibrahim, I personally am not so sure about the connection between the prongs on Hadramaut saifs and Somalian billaos. The three pronged billaos appear to be later, from the first half of the 20th century when Somalia was an Italian colony. The older, ivory hilted billaos I have only seen with one prong. Do you have a picture of a 3-pronged, older billao?

Teodor

Fair enough and perhaps I should have pointed out that it may not be clear which way the design flowed. Is it possible that the Somali dagger style with pronged hilt took that form from the Nimcha shown?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

On tracing back through Forum I spotted this picture below...What is the relationship if any with this weapon and the Nimcha ?
Note Genoa bite marks all down the backblade and the hint of something Zoomorphic in the hilt with an eye...Is this a horse head? Note the appearance of a nock at the top of the grip and the knuckle guard. This weapon is said to influence another; the Falceta Iberian weapon...Comments please?


See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11617