Could the eyelash mark originate from Vienna ?

Roland_M · 29th August 2016, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am hoping we might see some examples of these markings on the blades of various ethnographic weapons, and other observations and thoughts on the origins and development of the mysterious 'eyelash' markings.

I have this Indian Talwar-Kilij with twelve eyelash markings or at least they are pretty similar.
It's a high quality laminated blade with an old arsenal number (274).

Roland

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th August 2016, 01:13 AM

I am sure that this subject is one of the keys to understanding Ethnographic weapons down the ages and holds within it answers to the transmission of these extraordinary devices marking the blades. To my eye the curves and dots represent numerous possibilities including blade quality or talisman marks and are sometimes accompanied by the Indian word for foreigner...or Foreign manufacture.. FARANGI. Are these curved strikes moon shapes? Do the three dots mean anything and are they related to the tradition of placing dots on a blade filled with golden coloured metal such as brass. Are they representative of the Fleur de Lys? Given that a lot of Indian blades were made in Europe where were these marks placed...and what were the technicalities of striking the marks?

Below are examples of all the above including dots on the blade and hilt and gold coloured dots on the tip ...The chart shows dot and hogsback stamps and accompaying names including Ferrera, Genoa and hogsback (sickle /eyelash) accompanied by dots only. One blade shows a moon flanked by three crosses on each side...Do the two things mean the same thing; dots for crosses and vice versa?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16083 gives a reasonable set of clues ... and compliments this thread.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th August 2016, 04:54 AM

Further examples; Showing dots on blades, hilts and scabbards along with and without eyelash marks with and without famous name strikes. Since astrology was fairly strong it follows that the dots could be stars, planets, suns and thus interchangeable (as seen above ) with crosses. Below are a number of swords including Khanda, Tulvar, Shiavona, Takouba, Turkish Kilij, Flysa and even Kukhri...

The Chechens regarded the sickle mark blades as superior and https://books.google.com.om/books?id...blades&f=false describes that they nicknamed them as bitemarks... The Armenians largely cornered the Indian market for imported European blades so it can be seen that they were the main transmission of this type of decorated blade originating in Genoa to India.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd September 2016, 07:07 AM

Here is the blade of an Algerian Nimcha...with the bite marks (hogs back eyelash marks) from what is generally agreed as Genoan origin. (Penciled in the margin; "It may be said that the Algerian and Moroccan Nimcha were very similar and though I have seen elaborate hilts on Algerian including clossonne/enamel and in this case tortoise shell the two forms are virtually identical.)

Please see Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries: Their Manufacture and the Influence of European Imports
Robert Elgood; for an excellent view of how Genoan weapons found their way via Germany to India with "Armenian market savvy dealers" and thus the famous blademark entered India.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th September 2016, 08:16 AM

I note from atkinson-swords at http://atkinson-swords.com/marks-and...rif-stamp.html a well placed sentence Quote'' Sword blade "blanks" may originate in many countries and were desirable trade goods. Marks added to such blades do not necessarily indicate the forge, armory or original sword-smith. Rather, they may be added locally as markers of quality or "power" of the blade. For example, the "eyelash" or "sickle" marks of Genoa and elsewhere are well known and often imitated, that is, added to blades originating in Germany or the Caucasus. The Mazir-i-Sharif stamp was added to edged weapons and coins in Kabul, Afghanistan.'' Unquote.

Jens Nordlunde · 4th September 2016, 09:16 AM

I am by no way a specialist, but my guess is, that the very deep marks were made while the steel was very warm, and the not so deep marks were made when the steel was cold.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th September 2016, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I am by no way a specialist, but my guess is, that the very deep marks were made while the steel was very warm, and the not so deep marks were made when the steel was cold.

I ask a similar question at #28 . We simply do not know if the strike was made at the anvil when the blade was hot or ... Were the marks done on a cold blade in a different country? It is known that many blades were suited up later with blade marks but we don't know if they were done on the forge hot or cold.

kronckew · 4th September 2016, 10:23 AM

they persist into modern times as well, in my georgian khevsurli sword...

gratuitous marking on another probably older khukuri included for comparison.

30th August 2016, 04:54 AM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Bitemarks !! Further examples; Showing dots on blades, hilts and scabbards along with and without eyelash marks with and without famous name strikes. Since astrology was fairly strong it follows that the dots could be stars, planets, suns and thus interchangeable (as seen above ) with crosses. Below are a number of swords including Khanda, Tulvar, Shiavona, Takouba, Turkish Kilij, Flysa and even Kukhri... The Chechens regarded the sickle mark blades as superior and https://books.google.com.om/books?id...blades&f=false describes that they nicknamed them as bitemarks... The Armenians largely cornered the Indian market for imported European blades so it can be seen that they were the main transmission of this type of decorated blade originating in Genoa to India. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 30th August 2016 at 05:21 AM.

2nd September 2016, 07:07 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Here is the blade of an Algerian Nimcha...with the bite marks (hogs back eyelash marks) from what is generally agreed as Genoan origin. (Penciled in the margin; "It may be said that the Algerian and Moroccan Nimcha were very similar and though I have seen elaborate hilts on Algerian including clossonne/enamel and in this case tortoise shell the two forms are virtually identical.) Please see Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries: Their Manufacture and the Influence of European Imports Robert Elgood; for an excellent view of how Genoan weapons found their way via Germany to India with "Armenian market savvy dealers" and thus the famous blademark entered India. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 2nd September 2016 at 07:21 AM.

4th September 2016, 08:16 AM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I note from atkinson-swords at http://atkinson-swords.com/marks-and...rif-stamp.html a well placed sentence Quote'' Sword blade "blanks" may originate in many countries and were desirable trade goods. Marks added to such blades do not necessarily indicate the forge, armory or original sword-smith. Rather, they may be added locally as markers of quality or "power" of the blade. For example, the "eyelash" or "sickle" marks of Genoa and elsewhere are well known and often imitated, that is, added to blades originating in Germany or the Caucasus. The Mazir-i-Sharif stamp was added to edged weapons and coins in Kabul, Afghanistan.'' Unquote. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th September 2016 at 08:30 AM.

4th September 2016, 10:23 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	they persist into modern times as well, in my georgian khevsurli sword... gratuitous marking on another probably older khukuri included for comparison. Attached Images

30th August 2016, 01:13 AM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I am sure that this subject is one of the keys to understanding Ethnographic weapons down the ages and holds within it answers to the transmission of these extraordinary devices marking the blades. To my eye the curves and dots represent numerous possibilities including blade quality or talisman marks and are sometimes accompanied by the Indian word for foreigner...or Foreign manufacture.. FARANGI. Are these curved strikes moon shapes? Do the three dots mean anything and are they related to the tradition of placing dots on a blade filled with golden coloured metal such as brass. Are they representative of the Fleur de Lys? Given that a lot of Indian blades were made in Europe where were these marks placed...and what were the technicalities of striking the marks? Below are examples of all the above including dots on the blade and hilt and gold coloured dots on the tip ...The chart shows dot and hogsback stamps and accompaying names including Ferrera, Genoa and hogsback (sickle /eyelash) accompanied by dots only. One blade shows a moon flanked by three crosses on each side...Do the two things mean the same thing; dots for crosses and vice versa? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16083 gives a reasonable set of clues ... and compliments this thread. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 30th August 2016 at 02:10 AM.

4th September 2016, 09:16 AM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I am by no way a specialist, but my guess is, that the very deep marks were made while the steel was very warm, and the not so deep marks were made when the steel was cold.