Ram's head khanjar for comment

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I have seen a few iron ram heded daggers in the museums I visited in Rajahstan, but I didn't take any photos of them as they looked quite dull and uninteresting. Maybe that's why there aren't so many photos of them on the net, because they don't look very spectacular.

Being able to hand carve any type of animals head from a solid piece of iron / steel with primitive tools is quite spectacular to me, and much more interesting than plain iron hilts of which there are many examples, so how about if we look for ANY type of carved iron dagger hilt with an animals head.....ram, horse, elephant etc.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Being able to hand carve any type of animals head from a solid piece of iron / steel with primitive tools is quite spectacular to me, and much more interesting than plain iron hilts of which there are many examples, so how about if we look for ANY type of carved iron dagger hilt with an animals head.....ram, horse, elephant etc.

"The Arts of the Muslim Knight," page 220

"Arms and Armour: Traditional weapons of India," page 50, 73, 78, 83, 84, 139, 140

Some of them may be other metals (gilt brass) but most are iron.

PS: Yes, carving iron is difficult but it was quite wide spread and the Katar you showed in your earlier posting is just one of the many examples of such ironwork. To my knowledge, iron animal head hilts were mostly popular in the 19th century, but I cannot remember where I got this information from. Tried to find in a few of my books but couldn't find it there so it might be anecdotal.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

"The Arts of the Muslim Knight," page 220

"Arms and Armour: Traditional weapons of India," page 50, 73, 78, 83, 84, 139, 140

Some of them may be other metals (gilt brass) but most are iron.

PS: Yes, carving iron is difficult but it was quite wide spread and the Katar you showed in your earlier posting is just one of the many examples of such ironwork. To my knowledge, iron animal head hilts were mostly popular in the 19th century, but I cannot remember where I got this information from. Tried to find in a few of my books but couldn't find it there so it might be anecdotal.

Here is one that seems to be carved iron / steel, from the Met Museum.

Indian khanjar dagger, 17th century, steel, iron, silver, copper alloy, H. 14 3/16 in. (36 cm); W. 3 1/4 in. (8.3 cm); Wt. 12.8 oz. (362.9 g), Met Museum.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here is one that seems to be carved iron / steel, from the Met Museum.

Indian khanjar dagger, 17th century, steel, iron, silver, H. 14 3/16 in. (36 cm); W. 3 1/4 in. (8.3 cm); Wt. 12.8 oz. (362.9 g), Met Museum.

Isn't it copper or brass?!

Anyhow, the margins of the hilt are pretty much like those of the one in the original posting.

But again... 17th century (namely 1600+) ?!?! I doubt! Much more likely 19th century!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Isn't it copper or brass?!

Anyhow, the margins of the hilt are pretty much like those of the one in the original posting.

But again... 17th century (namely 1600+) ?!?! I doubt! Much more likely 19th century!

I am not sure if it was cast or carved but the hilt is iron according the the Museums description. Now here is an interesting statement. "This dagger is exceptional in that its hilt is made entirely of iron." This seems to indicate that in the opinion of the Museum, iron / steel zoomorphic hilts were not common.....humm.

Animal-head daggers came into fashion at the Mughal court in the second quarter of the seventeenth century. Horses were the most popular subject, followed by nilgai (a large antelope from India), lions, tigers, goats, and camels, usually carved from nephrite jade, serpentine, marble, or ivory.

This dagger is exceptional in that its hilt is made entirely of iron. The lion’s mane retains traces of silver, and its deep-set eyes were formerly jeweled.

References
Pyhrr, Stuart W., Donald J. La Rocca, and Mr. Morihiro Ogawa. Arms and Armor: Notable Acquisitions 1991-2002. New York: The Metropolitan Museum of Art, September 4, 2002–June, 29 2003. p. 40, no. 36, ill.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

"This dagger is exceptional in that its hilt is made entirely of iron." This seems to indicate that in the opinion of the Museum, iron / steel zoomorphic hilts were not common.....humm.

These additional photos quite clearly prove it is iron.

Maybe they consider it exceptional for 17th century. Maybe they consider it exceptional because thy didn't see another. However, I have seen a few and I don't think it was exceptional in the 19th century.

Moreover, you found yourself a couple of iron carved zoomorphic hilts.
I found others (at least a couple of the ones I indicated are iron).

Now how many more do you think are needed to officially say they were "common"?!

What relevance will it have as the next question might be "how common" or "define common"?!


I believe the essential point was to demonstrate the existence of such hilts as early as 17th century and whether there were only one hundred made or ten thousand is less relevant.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

These additional photos quite clearly prove it is iron.

Maybe they consider it exceptional for 17th century. Maybe they consider it exceptional because thy didn't see another. However, I have seen a few and I don't think it was exceptional in the 19th century.

Moreover, you found yourself a couple of iron carved zoomorphic hilts.
I found others (at least a couple of the ones I indicated are iron).

Now how many more do you think are needed to officially say they were "common"?!

What relevance will it have as the next question might be "how common" or "define common"?!


I believe the essential point was to demonstrate the existence of such hilts as early as 17th century and whether there were only one hundred made or ten thousand is less relevant.

I would not call carved iron zoomorphic hilted daggers common when there are only two images available besides the one being discussed here. I do not have the books you mentioned and have not seen the images they contain and I have not seen any images from Indian museums but still over several hundred years I would expect to see many more if they were that common. It may be that iron / steel was a much harder material to carve than stone and ivory and was just not a popular material for the people who would have made these types of hilts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Being able to hand carve any type of animals head from a solid piece of iron / steel with primitive tools is quite spectacular to me, and much more interesting than plain iron hilts of which there are many examples, so how about if we look for ANY type of carved iron dagger hilt with an animals head.....ram, horse, elephant etc.

Taking all varieties of Zoomorphic headed hilts is one way to do it... after all threads take their own line naturally and there are no rules as such to direct in which way we ought to pursue these...however, there are many zo omorphic themed hilts which are quite different in region and makeup thus it will become a little messy no? One post may illustrate lion heads whilst another may still be examining rams heads ...the confusion could be very difficult to control...so I advise and suggest sticking to one form and if another form falls under scrutiny the member can start another thread but the focus of each thread should be clear...and on this thread we focus upon Rams Heads. A researcher can thus be assured that when working on Rams Heads in future that our Library is accurate and true... You want Rams Heads? Here they are!!...If a Forumite wishes to raise the thread Zoomorphic heads on Daggers and Swords...so be it but it will be clear to researchers that this is what is in the thread...a general approach rather than a detailed pin point look at a specific or more general approach...
This is a great thread and all participants have given it a good airing... thus I do not want to be difficult... and will en devour to run with the ball in whatever direction it goes but I recommend one head at a time...lest it gets in a tangle...

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Taking all varieties of Zoomorphic headed hilts is one way to do it..

Ibrahiim, actually not "all varieties", just carved iron / steel ones, this is due to the relative lack of any one type.