Ram's head khanjar for comment

[David]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Now this one shows some real wear, what you would expect from a genuinely old dagger.

Estcrh, i was referring to THIS dagger (below) of which you made the remark above in post #21, not the originally posted dagger. Then you then asked in post #24:
"If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it."
My point is that apparently one that you have already accept as old has indeed been posted, establishing that such hilts did exist in antiquity.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by David

Estcrh, i was referring to THIS dagger (below) of which you made the remark above in post #21, not the originally posted dagger. Then you then asked in post #24:
"If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it."
My point is that apparently one that you have already accept as old has indeed been posted, establishing that such hilts did exist in antiquity.

David, I know which one you are referring to, and it has signs of use as you can see, but were are the other examples if a carved iron rams heads was a "common" hilt type?

I am asking if anyone has any other examples to compare with.

[David]

Originally Posted by estcrh

David, I know which one you are referring to, and it has signs of use as you can see, but were are the other examples if a carved iron rams heads was a "common" hilt type?

I am asking if anyone has any other examples to compare with.

Well, you also posted the one from the Chicago Art Institute, which while perhaps not as old as they claim does seem to be at least antique. Were these "common"? I'm not really sure since this is well outside my collecting interests. But certainly there is a precedent for the form. I don't feel qualified to comment on the age of the original example posted here.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by David

Well, you also posted the one from the Chicago Art Institute, which while perhaps not as old as they claim does seem to be at least antique. Were these "common"? I'm not really sure since this is well outside my collecting interests. But certainly there is a precedent for the form. I don't feel qualified to comment on the age of the original example posted here.

David, the one from the Chicago Art Institute, which would be considered as a zirah bouk, a rather rare form, is very suspect, first it has only been in their collection from 2014 (Gift of Marilynn B. Alsdorf, 2014), second it is described as having a watered steel blade when it is clearly pattern welded. The whole dagger shows no wear / age and the pattern welding while faintly showing in the image provided looks suspiciously like modern Indian pattern welded dagger blades. Since they got the age wrong (17th/18th century) as well I have no confidence in their authentication methods.

I hesitate to use it as an authentic example but I have enlarged the available image a bit, there may be some other opinions.

[ariel]

Based on the screen shot, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole :-)))

[mariusgmioc]

Talking about the Chicago dagger.

Clearly modern-looking pattern welded blade, suposedly coming from a time when almost all daggers were sporting wootz blades.

If it were for this reason alone and I would suspect a fake.

Also silver Koftgari in exceptionally good condition from a time when gold Koftgari was almost exclusively used.

Everything points to a modern production dagger and how the "specialists"of the Chicago Institute got their oppinion is beyond my understanding.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Talking about the Chicago dagger............................Everything points to a modern production dagger and how the "specialists"of the Chicago Institute got their oppinion is beyond my understanding.

It happens quite a lot, in private collections, museum collections, auction sales etc, which is why I question the khanjar shown by Cthulhu. I think there is the possibility that the hilt is old but it could also be more modern. The lack of other similar examples both old and new is unusual. The hilt is not worn, the edges are sharp but it is pitted, pitting can be a sign of age but it can also be artificially produced.

Carving steel in this shape was not as common as it seems so how do you accurately determine its age. The work is not extremely detailed and there is no other decoration such as koftgari to judge from. I think that at this time it is impossible to make an accurate age determination but all the same it is a nice unique Indian dagger with a wootz blade.