Ram's head khanjar for comment

estcrh · 24th August 2016, 08:47 AM

Now this one shows some real wear, what you would expect from a genuinely old dagger.

Quote:

17th Century

India

Wootz Steel.

Lenght: 34.9 cm.

North Indian Khanjar dagger. The hilt is of chiseled steel, with fully-modeled ram’s head pommel. The knucklebow issues from a makara’s mouth and terminates in a horse’s head, while the guard is chiseled with elephant’s heads in relief.

The broad, curved double-edged blade forged of fine silver wootz damascus steel, bears two deep fullers and a pronounced median ridge, developing into a thick armor-piercing tip.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th August 2016, 10:07 AM

Not wanting to get into a ravel over age on examples of rams heads I have posted I simply loaded on some Rams Heads...Clearly these Hilts have entered the traditions ...and should be viewed as such. The project dagger with probable replacement blade is typical of Indian style.. and is a good example.

David · 24th August 2016, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Now this one shows some real wear, what you would expect from a genuinely old dagger.

Estcrh, i was referring to THIS dagger (below) of which you made the remark above in post #21, not the originally posted dagger. Then you then asked in post #24:
"If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it."
My point is that apparently one that you have already accept as old has indeed been posted, establishing that such hilts did exist in antiquity.

estcrh · 24th August 2016, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Estcrh, i was referring to THIS dagger (below) of which you made the remark above in post #21, not the originally posted dagger. Then you then asked in post #24:
"If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it."
My point is that apparently one that you have already accept as old has indeed been posted, establishing that such hilts did exist in antiquity.

David, I know which one you are referring to, and it has signs of use as you can see, but were are the other examples if a carved iron rams heads was a "common" hilt type?

I am asking if anyone has any other examples to compare with.

David · 24th August 2016, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

David, I know which one you are referring to, and it has signs of use as you can see, but were are the other examples if a carved iron rams heads was a "common" hilt type?

I am asking if anyone has any other examples to compare with.

Well, you also posted the one from the Chicago Art Institute, which while perhaps not as old as they claim does seem to be at least antique. Were these "common"? I'm not really sure since this is well outside my collecting interests. But certainly there is a precedent for the form. I don't feel qualified to comment on the age of the original example posted here.

estcrh · 25th August 2016, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, you also posted the one from the Chicago Art Institute, which while perhaps not as old as they claim does seem to be at least antique. Were these "common"? I'm not really sure since this is well outside my collecting interests. But certainly there is a precedent for the form. I don't feel qualified to comment on the age of the original example posted here.

David, the one from the Chicago Art Institute, which would be considered as a zirah bouk, a rather rare form, is very suspect, first it has only been in their collection from 2014 (Gift of Marilynn B. Alsdorf, 2014), second it is described as having a watered steel blade when it is clearly pattern welded. The whole dagger shows no wear / age and the pattern welding while faintly showing in the image provided looks suspiciously like modern Indian pattern welded dagger blades. Since they got the age wrong (17th/18th century) as well I have no confidence in their authentication methods.

I hesitate to use it as an authentic example but I have enlarged the available image a bit, there may be some other opinions.

ariel · 25th August 2016, 02:55 AM

Based on the screen shot, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole :-)))

mariusgmioc · 25th August 2016, 07:02 AM

Talking about the Chicago dagger.

Clearly modern-looking pattern welded blade, suposedly coming from a time when almost all daggers were sporting wootz blades.

If it were for this reason alone and I would suspect a fake.

Also silver Koftgari in exceptionally good condition from a time when gold Koftgari was almost exclusively used.

Everything points to a modern production dagger and how the "specialists"of the Chicago Institute got their oppinion is beyond my understanding.

24th August 2016, 10:07 AM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Not wanting to get into a ravel over age on examples of rams heads I have posted I simply loaded on some Rams Heads...Clearly these Hilts have entered the traditions ...and should be viewed as such. The project dagger with probable replacement blade is typical of Indian style.. and is a good example.

25th August 2016, 02:55 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Based on the screen shot, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole :-)))

25th August 2016, 07:02 AM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Talking about the Chicago dagger. Clearly modern-looking pattern welded blade, suposedly coming from a time when almost all daggers were sporting wootz blades. If it were for this reason alone and I would suspect a fake. Also silver Koftgari in exceptionally good condition from a time when gold Koftgari was almost exclusively used. Everything points to a modern production dagger and how the "specialists"of the Chicago Institute got their oppinion is beyond my understanding.