Keris Bugis for comments

Roland_M · 23rd August 2016, 12:00 PM

Hello Marius,

in my eyes you have acquired a very nice Bugis. Rare to see, it's complete including the loop, which is often missing.
A well done Warangi in Java (I have a contact for you if wanted) could improve the visibility of the beautiful pamor dramatically.
Congratulations.

Roland

mariusgmioc · 23rd August 2016, 01:19 PM

Thank you for your comments!

@Detlef
Thank you very much for the link! The discussion there was very useful for better understanding my Kris.

@Marcokeris
Thanks!

@ Willem
Taking more close-up photos would require some natural light and mounting my gear on a fixed stand, and considering that I usually arrive home from work rather late and that Saturday I will go on holidays, I'm too lazy to make all the effort. The opening in the Wrankgka and the silver fitting are flush on the interior as well so I am prety sure it is the original wrangka belonging to the blade.

@ Jean
I also think the silverwork may be latter addition. However, I think it is of the correct type and style.

@ Roland
Thank you, but I agree with Alan (see his comment below). The pamor is quite visible and I like the lesser contrast.

@ Alan
Thank you for your suggestion! I was thinking the same.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2016, 01:19 PM

It would be rather misguided to subject this Bugis blade to the flamboyant Javanese warangan treatment.

It is very good just as it is.

Marius, once a silver, or horn, or other infill is applied to an old wrongko it is simply not possible to know if the wrongko was originally made for the blade now in it, or not.

In fact, this "originality" of wrongko to blade is not nearly as important as most collectors believe it to be, especially with keris that were actually used in combat. In societies where the keris was principally a part of dress, a nice neat fit of blade to wrongko is pretty important, but in societies where the primary use of the keris was as a weapon, the scabbards were often lost and a scabbard that was near enough was substituted. The two societies where this often occurred were Bugis society and Balinese society.

Anyway, its a really nice batu lapak:- many women and a harmonious household; who wouldn't want such a keris?

mariusgmioc · 23rd August 2016, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It would be rather misguided to subject this Bugis blade to the flamboyant Javanese warangan treatment.

It is very good just as it is.

Marius, once a silver, or horn, or other infill is applied to an old wrongko it is simply not possible to know if the wrongko was originally made for the blade now in it, or not.

In fact, this "originality" of wrongko to blade is not nearly as important as most collectors believe it to be, especially with keris that were actually used in combat. In societies where the keris was principally a part of dress, a nice neat fit of blade to wrongko is pretty important, but in societies where the primary use of the keris was as a weapon, the scabbards were often lost and a scabbard that was near enough was substituted. The two societies where this often occurred were Bugis society and Balinese society.

Anyway, its a really nice batu lapak:- many women and a harmonious household; who wouldn't want such a keris?

Thank you Alan!

David · 23rd August 2016, 05:04 PM

I would agree with Alan than an aggressive warangan treatment on this keris would not be culturally inappropriate. While i understand the desire to see such a nice pattern "pop" with high contrast , that is far less acceptable outside of the Java/Bali/Madura nexus. I think that it is important for us to understand that the manner in which different keris bearing cultures maintain their blades is not the same and that Indonesia is indeed made up of numerous cultures.
The question of the Passio Sumange (Toli-Toli) has been an ongoing one that i am still not certain we have ever had clear and concise answers on. There do seem to be a fair amount of this style of dress available on the market these days and i suspect that Marius' example is probably more contemporary and may have been added to this dress later. Still, it seems to have a little bit of age and is nicely and tastefully done. I still have questions about the function of this feature traditionally. Was it reserved for a certain social level to convey status? Does it serve any practical function? Is it appropriate to simply add it to the dress of any culturally Bugis keris? We have discussed these questions in these threads, but i am not sure we actually came to any agreed upon conclusion.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=toli-toli
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=toli-toli

Sajen · 23rd August 2016, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

A well done Warangi in Java could improve the visibility of the beautiful pamor dramatically.

Agree here with Alan and David, I don't see any need of a new warangan for this blade.

Bob A · 23rd August 2016, 09:56 PM

Many women and a harmonious household . . . lots of power in that keris, apparently.

Quite an attractive piece, to my unschooled eye.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2016, 10:53 PM

A contradiction in terms Bob, but certainly something to reach for.

Save a lot on housing costs too, instead of having to provide a separate house for each wife.

mariusgmioc · 24th August 2016, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A contradiction in terms Bob, but certainly something to reach for.

Save a lot on housing costs too, instead of having to provide a separate house for each wife.

It's called "economies of scale."

PS: I hope your wife doesn't see this!

A. G. Maisey · 24th August 2016, 09:07 AM

Naw --- they won't mind.

joking -- joking --- just joking.

Actually when I wrote that thing I was thinking of a bloke I used to buy from who had a stall in Pasar Beringharjo in Jogja. Pak Kadir, he came from Palembang. He was promoted to another realm some time ago, so I reckon its OK to tell this. He used to bitch to me about his wives. He had one in Jogja, one in Palembang, and the woman with the stall opposite reckoned he had another one down the road in Klaten. Anyway, Pak Kadir reckoned that Christians had the game sewn up:- one wife, only one wife. One wife = one house, one lot of household expenses, one servant, one everything. He reckoned that was the reason Christians were rich and Indonesians were poor:- too many wives.

Of course, no wives at all you can get even richer --- and that reminds me of another Indonesian I used to know. He was --- very strangely --- Greek Orthodox. He reckoned that he loved milk, but that didn't mean he had to own a cow.

Henk · 24th August 2016, 10:14 AM

Great this humor

.

Beautiful keris and as said here, leave it the way it is. I have some Bugis keris in the same condition. Indonesian people in my neighbourhood told me that the Bugis used their keris as a weapon. The warangan treatment was done with the delivery and the only treatment for a Bugis blade was cleaning with lemon juce wich faded the high contrast of the warangan treatment away during the time.
This in contradistinction with the Javanese/Balinese/Madurese societies where the warang treatment was done regurlary.
This confirms what is said here.

David · 24th August 2016, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Of course, no wives at all you can get even richer ---

Actually, the trick isn't no wives if you want to maintain some wealth, it's no children...

23rd August 2016, 01:19 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	It would be rather misguided to subject this Bugis blade to the flamboyant Javanese warangan treatment. It is very good just as it is. Marius, once a silver, or horn, or other infill is applied to an old wrongko it is simply not possible to know if the wrongko was originally made for the blade now in it, or not. In fact, this "originality" of wrongko to blade is not nearly as important as most collectors believe it to be, especially with keris that were actually used in combat. In societies where the keris was principally a part of dress, a nice neat fit of blade to wrongko is pretty important, but in societies where the primary use of the keris was as a weapon, the scabbards were often lost and a scabbard that was near enough was substituted. The two societies where this often occurred were Bugis society and Balinese society. Anyway, its a really nice batu lapak:- many women and a harmonious household; who wouldn't want such a keris? Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 23rd August 2016 at 01:35 PM.

23rd August 2016, 05:04 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I would agree with Alan than an aggressive warangan treatment on this keris would not be culturally inappropriate. While i understand the desire to see such a nice pattern "pop" with high contrast , that is far less acceptable outside of the Java/Bali/Madura nexus. I think that it is important for us to understand that the manner in which different keris bearing cultures maintain their blades is not the same and that Indonesia is indeed made up of numerous cultures. The question of the Passio Sumange (Toli-Toli) has been an ongoing one that i am still not certain we have ever had clear and concise answers on. There do seem to be a fair amount of this style of dress available on the market these days and i suspect that Marius' example is probably more contemporary and may have been added to this dress later. Still, it seems to have a little bit of age and is nicely and tastefully done. I still have questions about the function of this feature traditionally. Was it reserved for a certain social level to convey status? Does it serve any practical function? Is it appropriate to simply add it to the dress of any culturally Bugis keris? We have discussed these questions in these threads, but i am not sure we actually came to any agreed upon conclusion. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=toli-toli http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=toli-toli Last edited by David; 23rd August 2016 at 09:16 PM. Reason: Grammatical correction

23rd August 2016, 12:00 PM	#1
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Hello Marius, in my eyes you have acquired a very nice Bugis. Rare to see, it's complete including the loop, which is often missing. A well done Warangi in Java (I have a contact for you if wanted) could improve the visibility of the beautiful pamor dramatically. Congratulations. Roland

23rd August 2016, 01:19 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Thank you for your comments! @Detlef Thank you very much for the link! The discussion there was very useful for better understanding my Kris. @Marcokeris Thanks! @ Willem Taking more close-up photos would require some natural light and mounting my gear on a fixed stand, and considering that I usually arrive home from work rather late and that Saturday I will go on holidays, I'm too lazy to make all the effort. The opening in the Wrankgka and the silver fitting are flush on the interior as well so I am prety sure it is the original wrangka belonging to the blade. @ Jean I also think the silverwork may be latter addition. However, I think it is of the correct type and style. @ Roland Thank you, but I agree with Alan (see his comment below). The pamor is quite visible and I like the lesser contrast. @ Alan Thank you for your suggestion! I was thinking the same.

23rd August 2016, 09:56 PM	#7
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 435	Many women and a harmonious household . . . lots of power in that keris, apparently. Quite an attractive piece, to my unschooled eye.

23rd August 2016, 10:53 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	A contradiction in terms Bob, but certainly something to reach for. Save a lot on housing costs too, instead of having to provide a separate house for each wife.

24th August 2016, 09:07 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Naw --- they won't mind. joking -- joking --- just joking. Actually when I wrote that thing I was thinking of a bloke I used to buy from who had a stall in Pasar Beringharjo in Jogja. Pak Kadir, he came from Palembang. He was promoted to another realm some time ago, so I reckon its OK to tell this. He used to bitch to me about his wives. He had one in Jogja, one in Palembang, and the woman with the stall opposite reckoned he had another one down the road in Klaten. Anyway, Pak Kadir reckoned that Christians had the game sewn up:- one wife, only one wife. One wife = one house, one lot of household expenses, one servant, one everything. He reckoned that was the reason Christians were rich and Indonesians were poor:- too many wives. Of course, no wives at all you can get even richer --- and that reminds me of another Indonesian I used to know. He was --- very strangely --- Greek Orthodox. He reckoned that he loved milk, but that didn't mean he had to own a cow.

24th August 2016, 10:14 AM	#11
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Great this humor . Beautiful keris and as said here, leave it the way it is. I have some Bugis keris in the same condition. Indonesian people in my neighbourhood told me that the Bugis used their keris as a weapon. The warangan treatment was done with the delivery and the only treatment for a Bugis blade was cleaning with lemon juce wich faded the high contrast of the warangan treatment away during the time. This in contradistinction with the Javanese/Balinese/Madurese societies where the warang treatment was done regurlary. This confirms what is said here.