BULL FIGHTING WEAPONS

drac2k · 13th August 2016, 03:51 PM

VANDOO, could you elaborate on item # 4, which to me looks like a riding crop? It does not appear to me to be an effective weapon.First, the handle appears to be very small, with no guard and made of metal;I imagine that it would be very difficult to hold, especially if sweat and blood were added into the mix.Another problem for me is that the blade appears to be very flimsy; is it cruciform; can you show us a picture of the naked blade.Since it looks like a riding crop, could it be an emergency weapon for the Picadors?

VANDOO · 13th August 2016, 05:14 PM

SORRY I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS? IT WAS JUST INCLUDED IN THE PICTURE I FOUND OF MOST OF THE BLADED THINGS USED IN THE SPORT. THE FIRST KNIFE PICTURED IS WHAT BROUGHT THIS POST ABOUT AS IT REMINDED ME OF A DAGGER I HAD SEEN PICTURES OF IT MAY JUST BE A HUNTING KNIFE AND HUNTING KNIVES MAY HAVE BEEN USED AND IT IS LIKELY REGULAR SWORDS WERE USED BEFORE SPECIALIZED WEAPONS WERE MADE TO DO A MORE EFFICIENT AND SAFER JOB.
SAFER FOR THE MATADOR THAT IS. WHAT IS SAID IS TRUE THE PERCENTAGE OF WINS GOES TO THE MATADOR AND THE ODDS ARE STACKED IN HIS FAVOR BUT SOMETIMES THE BULL FIGURES IT OUT AND WINS. IF THE BULLS HAD ALWAYS WON THERE WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN BULL FIGHTING. IF A MAN GOES IN WITHOUT ANY TRICKS, TOOLS OR WAY OUT THE BULL WILL INVARIABLY WIN. SUCH BULLS MAY HAVE BEEN USED IN THE COLISEUMS IN ROME FOR THE SPECTACLE OF PEOPLE BEING DONE IN BY ANIMALS THAT WAS POPULAR IN THOSE TIMES, I DON'T KNOW BUT HERCULES WAS SAID TO HAVE FOUGHT A KILLER BULL SO ITS POSSIBLE.
I HAVE HANDLED THE MODERN BULLFIGHTING SWORDS BUT HAVE NEVER SEEN THE DAGGER OR OTHER THINGS. THERE IS A LONG HISTORY ASSOCIATED WITH THIS AND MANY TRADITIONS, CEREMONIES AND BELIEFS. MANS ASSOCIATION WITH CATTLE HAS BEEN A LONG ONE AND MOSTLY BENEFITS MAN AND ALWAYS HAS WITH ALL ANIMALS WE HAVE DOMESTICATED. PERHAPS SOMEONE WHO HAS THE KNOWLEDGE AND COLLECTS IN THIS FIELD MAY ADD TO THIS TOPIC BUT I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. JUST BE CAREFUL IF YOU DO AS IN MY CASE FOOLS RUSH IN WHERE WISE MEN FEAR TO TREAD.

BUT AT LEAST SOME MAY NOW KNOW WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING AT IF THEY SEE ONE OF THESE ITEMS .

UNFORTUNATELY I DON'T HAVE INFORMATION OR THE ARTICLE THAT PICTURE IS FROM. NO DOUBT AN EXPLANATION OF THE ITEMS IS AVAILABLE AS THE ITEMS ARE NUMBERED. IT DOES LOOK MORE LIKE A RIDING CROP THAN A WEAPON.

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2016, 05:50 PM

Drac2, thank you for noting that, and very interesting question on exactly what that is, it does look like a riding crop.

In looking further into these weapons, I must say the material which references or attends to them in the literature is sparse. As I mentioned, over the years I did find the swords interesting in a sense of exotica because of that. In various cases of course in the scope of Spanish and Portuguese swords, some of these would be mentioned.

What I had hoped to discover was the older examples of actual swords used in these events, and what sort of sword or style might have been used in the early times. We know that before c.1726, the events were quite different, and select status individuals were involved with much of the contact from horseback and using a kind of lance (rejones).

In 1726, when the concept of a lone swordsman on foot was introduced, I believe by Francisco Romero in Ronda, Spain, he apparently used a sword concealed by the red cape (muleta). The sword is described as an estoque, which is of course a type of European sword for thrusting.

In some discussions I found on line with notes from Javier Ramos in 2006, who if I recall is in Spain, he suggests that a rapier would have broken in such thrusting in these cases, and that the cup guard would have caused encumbrance of the swordsman's hand. He suggests that the length of the rapier blades would have lent to such breaking and suggested that the advent of the small sword may have been more in keeping with such thrusts.
The hilt was apparently flat, much as we see in the swords which appear to have been traditionally in place for some time, and was held with the pommel in the hand and two fingers over the flat ricasso.

While I had wondered if the versions of munitions or arming grade cup hilts might have been used in the earliest use of 'estoque de verdad' (real sword) as following the estoque simulado in the style brought in by Romero. With this it seems that was not the case.

With regard to the daggers, I believe termed 'puntilla', what I notice is the curious flared or leaf like blade. It seems to me that is like the points of some of the large zweihander or other large swords used in Europe in hunting. Though I had brought in earlier the idea of these swords and daggers having possible association with hunting weapons, in checking "Hunting Weapons" (Blackmore) there were no references to bullfight weapons

The instance I also mentioned earlier regarding the bullfight sword having been examined in a study for military swords was with Major John Gaspard LeMarchant who in 1788 was working on developing more effective swords for British cavalry.

His review of prototypes included, as he noted, those of "..Turks, Mamalukes, Moors and Hungarians", with the result being the M1796 light cavalry sabre. However with swords for heavy cavalry, the generals balked at the idea of sabres, and insisted on thrusting swords. It was in this context that the Spanish bullfight sword came into the study (from 'LeMarchant: Scientific Soldier", Thoumaine, but cannot recall exact details). Clearly this was not a combat weapon, but interesting to see in this situation.

Also interesting in other influences from the 'corrido'/ bullfight, in cases in use of the well known navaja knife, tbere are occasions known where a special cloak known as 'mantas' was employed. While not directly proven, the similarity is compelling.

I still have not found genuine examples of early bullfight swords or weapons of any true vintage, and have hoped to find early examples to compare to the well known modern forms.

13th August 2016, 05:14 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	SORRY I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS? IT WAS JUST INCLUDED IN THE PICTURE I FOUND OF MOST OF THE BLADED THINGS USED IN THE SPORT. THE FIRST KNIFE PICTURED IS WHAT BROUGHT THIS POST ABOUT AS IT REMINDED ME OF A DAGGER I HAD SEEN PICTURES OF IT MAY JUST BE A HUNTING KNIFE AND HUNTING KNIVES MAY HAVE BEEN USED AND IT IS LIKELY REGULAR SWORDS WERE USED BEFORE SPECIALIZED WEAPONS WERE MADE TO DO A MORE EFFICIENT AND SAFER JOB. SAFER FOR THE MATADOR THAT IS. WHAT IS SAID IS TRUE THE PERCENTAGE OF WINS GOES TO THE MATADOR AND THE ODDS ARE STACKED IN HIS FAVOR BUT SOMETIMES THE BULL FIGURES IT OUT AND WINS. IF THE BULLS HAD ALWAYS WON THERE WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN BULL FIGHTING. IF A MAN GOES IN WITHOUT ANY TRICKS, TOOLS OR WAY OUT THE BULL WILL INVARIABLY WIN. SUCH BULLS MAY HAVE BEEN USED IN THE COLISEUMS IN ROME FOR THE SPECTACLE OF PEOPLE BEING DONE IN BY ANIMALS THAT WAS POPULAR IN THOSE TIMES, I DON'T KNOW BUT HERCULES WAS SAID TO HAVE FOUGHT A KILLER BULL SO ITS POSSIBLE. I HAVE HANDLED THE MODERN BULLFIGHTING SWORDS BUT HAVE NEVER SEEN THE DAGGER OR OTHER THINGS. THERE IS A LONG HISTORY ASSOCIATED WITH THIS AND MANY TRADITIONS, CEREMONIES AND BELIEFS. MANS ASSOCIATION WITH CATTLE HAS BEEN A LONG ONE AND MOSTLY BENEFITS MAN AND ALWAYS HAS WITH ALL ANIMALS WE HAVE DOMESTICATED. PERHAPS SOMEONE WHO HAS THE KNOWLEDGE AND COLLECTS IN THIS FIELD MAY ADD TO THIS TOPIC BUT I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. JUST BE CAREFUL IF YOU DO AS IN MY CASE FOOLS RUSH IN WHERE WISE MEN FEAR TO TREAD. BUT AT LEAST SOME MAY NOW KNOW WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING AT IF THEY SEE ONE OF THESE ITEMS . UNFORTUNATELY I DON'T HAVE INFORMATION OR THE ARTICLE THAT PICTURE IS FROM. NO DOUBT AN EXPLANATION OF THE ITEMS IS AVAILABLE AS THE ITEMS ARE NUMBERED. IT DOES LOOK MORE LIKE A RIDING CROP THAN A WEAPON. Last edited by VANDOO; 14th August 2016 at 05:33 AM.

13th August 2016, 03:51 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	VANDOO, could you elaborate on item # 4, which to me looks like a riding crop? It does not appear to me to be an effective weapon.First, the handle appears to be very small, with no guard and made of metal;I imagine that it would be very difficult to hold, especially if sweat and blood were added into the mix.Another problem for me is that the blade appears to be very flimsy; is it cruciform; can you show us a picture of the naked blade.Since it looks like a riding crop, could it be an emergency weapon for the Picadors?

13th August 2016, 05:50 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Drac2, thank you for noting that, and very interesting question on exactly what that is, it does look like a riding crop. In looking further into these weapons, I must say the material which references or attends to them in the literature is sparse. As I mentioned, over the years I did find the swords interesting in a sense of exotica because of that. In various cases of course in the scope of Spanish and Portuguese swords, some of these would be mentioned. What I had hoped to discover was the older examples of actual swords used in these events, and what sort of sword or style might have been used in the early times. We know that before c.1726, the events were quite different, and select status individuals were involved with much of the contact from horseback and using a kind of lance (rejones). In 1726, when the concept of a lone swordsman on foot was introduced, I believe by Francisco Romero in Ronda, Spain, he apparently used a sword concealed by the red cape (muleta). The sword is described as an estoque, which is of course a type of European sword for thrusting. In some discussions I found on line with notes from Javier Ramos in 2006, who if I recall is in Spain, he suggests that a rapier would have broken in such thrusting in these cases, and that the cup guard would have caused encumbrance of the swordsman's hand. He suggests that the length of the rapier blades would have lent to such breaking and suggested that the advent of the small sword may have been more in keeping with such thrusts. The hilt was apparently flat, much as we see in the swords which appear to have been traditionally in place for some time, and was held with the pommel in the hand and two fingers over the flat ricasso. While I had wondered if the versions of munitions or arming grade cup hilts might have been used in the earliest use of 'estoque de verdad' (real sword) as following the estoque simulado in the style brought in by Romero. With this it seems that was not the case. With regard to the daggers, I believe termed 'puntilla', what I notice is the curious flared or leaf like blade. It seems to me that is like the points of some of the large zweihander or other large swords used in Europe in hunting. Though I had brought in earlier the idea of these swords and daggers having possible association with hunting weapons, in checking "Hunting Weapons" (Blackmore) there were no references to bullfight weapons The instance I also mentioned earlier regarding the bullfight sword having been examined in a study for military swords was with Major John Gaspard LeMarchant who in 1788 was working on developing more effective swords for British cavalry. His review of prototypes included, as he noted, those of "..Turks, Mamalukes, Moors and Hungarians", with the result being the M1796 light cavalry sabre. However with swords for heavy cavalry, the generals balked at the idea of sabres, and insisted on thrusting swords. It was in this context that the Spanish bullfight sword came into the study (from 'LeMarchant: Scientific Soldier", Thoumaine, but cannot recall exact details). Clearly this was not a combat weapon, but interesting to see in this situation. Also interesting in other influences from the 'corrido'/ bullfight, in cases in use of the well known navaja knife, tbere are occasions known where a special cloak known as 'mantas' was employed. While not directly proven, the similarity is compelling. I still have not found genuine examples of early bullfight swords or weapons of any true vintage, and have hoped to find early examples to compare to the well known modern forms.