18th century hanger with possible naval connections

CutlassCollector · 10th August 2016, 08:13 PM

Hi Mark, interesting article and link, and good to see some naval items again.

You sometimes see Brit cutlasses with a letter id for a location such as QD - quarterdeck, FC - forecastle etc, followed by a number but I have not seen a rack identified by number before.
That's not to say they don't exist of course.
I have a feeling though that corrado26 may be on the right track as 45 cutlasses in one rack would not be common unless possibly on the largest naval warships.

Regards, CC

Jim McDougall · 10th August 2016, 08:58 PM

Hi Mark,
So far digging into notes. This is obviously a hanger or other ranks sword of the briquette category (i.e. solid cast brass hilts) which expands to the various auxiliary and support units such as 'pioneers, sappers' etc.

One thing I found is that Mexican military categorization by units etc. is often reflected on weaponry with unusual variations of letters, dots or periods, hyper script and highly abbreviated designations.

For example, a British M1821 sabre found at battlefield at San Jacinto Texas from the 'Alamo' period I was researching for a museum had the inscription
R.P.D. Jo Ca No.19 on the back of the hilt
This indicated apparently Regimente Permanente Delores , Primero (first company, weapon number 19).
The Delores regiment was made permanent in 1833 (Alamo if course 1836).

There were apparently varying configurations of numbers and letters on various locations on the sword overall, indicating probably a kind of resume' of issuance.

In other notes I found that R, also represents 'zapado' (zapadors or sappers), while R L the letter R with hyper letter L smaller and elevated meant 'Cuerpo de Ingenieres ( Real Corps of Engineers).

With numbers like 7 for example with small zero up and left of letter stood for 7th (the small o =th)

With the numerous French weapons, and so influenced in the Mexican military it seems feasible this is a munitions level hanger which might have been produced based on their arms and issued into the Mexican military sometime 1850s (?).

Despite these possibilities, remember that Mexico had a navy of sorts which often included patrol vessels to guard their ever threatened coastal regions, not to mention piratical circumstances . I have long had a sword of U.S. M1840 type cavalry hilt which has a shorter heavy blade which corresponds to espada anchas with these kind of heavy blades, and I have seen termed as cutlasses. The hilts on these were more aligned with those of other weapons to the south in Mexico, and always seemed to indeed possibly have found use in Mexican maritime circumstances, which were often more irregularly operated.
The 'cutlass' with military (M1840 type) hilt does have mkgs of Republic of Mexico, but no apparent unit mkgs. so I do know its Mexican. Sorry I don't have photos of it!

Shakethetrees · 10th August 2016, 10:28 PM

...and speaking of the French-Mexican design continuum, I recently picked this saber's up right out of the woodwork!

And, to boot, it came from a kid I went to grammar school with fifty years ago! It is something he said that had always been in his family, but he had no other info about it.

I didn't know what it was except that it had a typical c.1850's American style blade etched with pretty much boilerplate decoration and "US".

After posting it on another forum and a little digging around a bit I learned it is a militia saber from Stockton, California, of the Stockton Blues Militia.

I've never heard of this unit or was aware anything like it existed. The one piece cast brass hilt with unique lines (for the US) was a puzzle to me.

California still retained its Spanish aesthetic even though it was a part of the US at the time this saber was made.

So, to bring this around full circle, a French form that inspired Mexican design, that, in turn inspired an American form!

This is the great thing about this forum. By seeing things juxtaposed side by side and understanding each region's history, the big picture becomes more clear!

This has been a "Eureka" moment for me today.

M ELEY · 11th August 2016, 05:12 AM

Hello all and thank you for posting comments!

Corrado26, thank you for that other possibility concerning abbreviated regiment marks. I hadn't thought about the X standing for 10th! A definite possibility...

Hello, Jim you ole' sea dog! Knew I could bring you out with this curiosity! I hadn't thought about a possible Mexican connection following a French style. I'll try to do some research in that area (and for that matter, on S. American imported swords, as many of those countries were receiving German and French weapons). Thanks for taking the time to look up that information. I must admit that I had hoped for French or Dutch, but that's how it goes when you take a chance on a 'one off' sword. More research might still produce clearer answers. The hilt on mine isn't a solid cast brass hilt, but in fact, two pieces. There is a German sword in Neumann's with the EXACT brass grip and same shaped quillon, so I still think mine is closer to early 19th. BTW, I'm driving to Beaufort, NC in the AM for the Pirate Invasion festival doing some sales/book signings! Gotta love it if it's pirate!

CC, good to hear from you again as well and I also miss the naval stuff, but Fernando has a fantastic boarding ax (pair!) on that other thread! Hope to see more nautical stuff come up.

Shakethetrees, what an awesome piece you have there! Was this militia involved in any conflicts or simply present to preserve community order? It does indeed resemble the French grenadiere pattern closely.

Jim McDougall · 11th August 2016, 08:24 AM

Hey Cap'n Mark
You know I cant resist this stuff you come up with!
Actually, as you know I get pretty involved with everything Mexican and Spanish colonial. The bookmobile is now dry docked at the very foot of the Superstition Mountains here in Arizona. These rugged defiles are really weird looking and it feels like the face of the sun here about 105-115 every day.

The Spanish Colonial and Apache history is everywhere here, I picked up a monstrous Mexican Bowie with a cane cactus hilt that makes the Crocodile Dundee thing look like a keychain pocket knife!

In most of the research on Mexican military related stuff, the methods and markings for units is pretty inconsistent, but these numbers and letters seem like them for some reason. There is something about these often irregular and unusual weapons which is fascinating, maybe its being in that climate here. Much of the data I found on regimentals was from a guy who has spent years excavating battle sites in Mexican areas and remote Texas etc.

But, the notes by Corrado are relevant as well, and who knows it could be European.

Have fun at the pirate gig!!!

M ELEY · 11th August 2016, 08:43 AM

Jim, you live the life of an adventurer! Just don't be going out into those haunted mountains alone! I've seen some pretty scary stuff about the Superstition Mts. I'm just trying to keep an open mind about the piece. I want to post some better close-ups when I have time, showing the two part hilt and the quality of the blade. I'll also list the swords from Neumann's when I get the chance.

In the meantime, a similar cousin to our little beasty? (From Sailor in Saddle again! I'm going to owe Dmitri big!!)

http://www.sailorinsaddle.com/product.aspx?id=1393

Jim McDougall · 11th August 2016, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Jim, you live the life of an adventurer! Just don't be going out into those haunted mountains alone! I've seen some pretty scary stuff about the Superstition Mts. I'm just trying to keep an open mind about the piece. I want to post some better close-ups when I have time, showing the two part hilt and the quality of the blade. I'll also list the swords from Neumann's when I get the chance.

In the meantime, a similar cousin to our little beasty? (From Sailor in Saddle again! I'm going to owe Dmitri big!!)

http://www.sailorinsaddle.com/product.aspx?id=1393

Yup!!! Those spooky looking sentinels loom over us every day, and it can be blue sky everywhere but black clouds, thunder and lightning over them, like some strange old horror movie.
WOW.....good call from Dmitry!
We often forget about our northern neighbors up there.

Hotspur · 11th August 2016, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

...and speaking of the French-Mexican design continuum, I recently picked this saber's up right out of the woodwork!

And, to boot, it came from a kid I went to grammar school with fifty years ago! It is something he said that had always been in his family, but he had no other info about it.

I didn't know what it was except that it had a typical c.1850's American style blade etched with pretty much boilerplate decoration and "US".

After posting it on another forum and a little digging around a bit I learned it is a militia saber from Stockton, California, of the Stockton Blues Militia.

I've never heard of this unit or was aware anything like it existed. The one piece cast brass hilt with unique lines (for the US) was a puzzle to me.

California still retained its Spanish aesthetic even though it was a part of the US at the time this saber was made.

So, to bring this around full circle, a French form that inspired Mexican design, that, in turn inspired an American form!

This is the great thing about this forum. By seeing things juxtaposed side by side and understanding each region's history, the big picture becomes more clear!

This has been a "Eureka" moment for me today.

The Stockton Blues swords are blade marked to Horstmann. It has been determined that they were assembled from parts by Bannerman (see the Flayderman/Mowbray Medicus Collection book). Sometimes still listed as ACW period variants, they are later in time. I would think it would also be mentioned in the latest Thillman but I don't have his newer "master".

Sharkskin scabbards. Both U.S. naval and infantry blades have been found with this hilt.

Somewhere in my files is a Peter Knecht marked cavalry size saber blade that could easily be as late as the 1830s, or even later.

Cheers

GC

Hotspur · 11th August 2016, 09:39 AM

Regarding the sword of this thread, I feel it is similar to some other hangers and even before that with the French heart and half heart type straight hangers. IIRC there is an article pair from Petard that show a nice evolution of French swords in the 18th century.

Anyway, the straight hangers were secondary arms and tools continuing with Rose and Starr into the 19th century. My old French hanger almost a ringer for the Rose artillery sword. I know other countries continued as well.

Maritime use would make sense. My oldster is listed as a sabre troupe marine. Also the Rose article showing the similarity near a century later. The French went from full to half then no counterguard with the 1750s revolutions of brass hilts.

From old to new would be my quite wide bladed Starr 1818. As so many variations we see, they seem to have a common chromosome as to blade length, even with the early Ames militia swords with 21" blades (25" in the 1850s).

Here is the Petard article. I'm linking from my Google drive if the system won't upload the file (I guess it did).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9A...ew?usp=sharing

Cheers

GC

>sigh so may of my files are too big to share on my bedside brainiac.

10th August 2016, 10:28 PM	#3
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	...and speaking of the French-Mexican design continuum, I recently picked this saber's up right out of the woodwork! And, to boot, it came from a kid I went to grammar school with fifty years ago! It is something he said that had always been in his family, but he had no other info about it. I didn't know what it was except that it had a typical c.1850's American style blade etched with pretty much boilerplate decoration and "US". After posting it on another forum and a little digging around a bit I learned it is a militia saber from Stockton, California, of the Stockton Blues Militia. I've never heard of this unit or was aware anything like it existed. The one piece cast brass hilt with unique lines (for the US) was a puzzle to me. California still retained its Spanish aesthetic even though it was a part of the US at the time this saber was made. So, to bring this around full circle, a French form that inspired Mexican design, that, in turn inspired an American form! This is the great thing about this forum. By seeing things juxtaposed side by side and understanding each region's history, the big picture becomes more clear! This has been a "Eureka" moment for me today. Attached Images

10th August 2016, 08:13 PM	#1
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 343	Hi Mark, interesting article and link, and good to see some naval items again. You sometimes see Brit cutlasses with a letter id for a location such as QD - quarterdeck, FC - forecastle etc, followed by a number but I have not seen a rack identified by number before. That's not to say they don't exist of course. I have a feeling though that corrado26 may be on the right track as 45 cutlasses in one rack would not be common unless possibly on the largest naval warships. Regards, CC

10th August 2016, 08:58 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi Mark, So far digging into notes. This is obviously a hanger or other ranks sword of the briquette category (i.e. solid cast brass hilts) which expands to the various auxiliary and support units such as 'pioneers, sappers' etc. One thing I found is that Mexican military categorization by units etc. is often reflected on weaponry with unusual variations of letters, dots or periods, hyper script and highly abbreviated designations. For example, a British M1821 sabre found at battlefield at San Jacinto Texas from the 'Alamo' period I was researching for a museum had the inscription R.P.D. Jo Ca No.19 on the back of the hilt This indicated apparently Regimente Permanente Delores , Primero (first company, weapon number 19). The Delores regiment was made permanent in 1833 (Alamo if course 1836). There were apparently varying configurations of numbers and letters on various locations on the sword overall, indicating probably a kind of resume' of issuance. In other notes I found that R, also represents 'zapado' (zapadors or sappers), while R L the letter R with hyper letter L smaller and elevated meant 'Cuerpo de Ingenieres ( Real Corps of Engineers). With numbers like 7 for example with small zero up and left of letter stood for 7th (the small o =th) With the numerous French weapons, and so influenced in the Mexican military it seems feasible this is a munitions level hanger which might have been produced based on their arms and issued into the Mexican military sometime 1850s (?). Despite these possibilities, remember that Mexico had a navy of sorts which often included patrol vessels to guard their ever threatened coastal regions, not to mention piratical circumstances . I have long had a sword of U.S. M1840 type cavalry hilt which has a shorter heavy blade which corresponds to espada anchas with these kind of heavy blades, and I have seen termed as cutlasses. The hilts on these were more aligned with those of other weapons to the south in Mexico, and always seemed to indeed possibly have found use in Mexican maritime circumstances, which were often more irregularly operated. The 'cutlass' with military (M1840 type) hilt does have mkgs of Republic of Mexico, but no apparent unit mkgs. so I do know its Mexican. Sorry I don't have photos of it!

11th August 2016, 05:12 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello all and thank you for posting comments! Corrado26, thank you for that other possibility concerning abbreviated regiment marks. I hadn't thought about the X standing for 10th! A definite possibility... Hello, Jim you ole' sea dog! Knew I could bring you out with this curiosity! I hadn't thought about a possible Mexican connection following a French style. I'll try to do some research in that area (and for that matter, on S. American imported swords, as many of those countries were receiving German and French weapons). Thanks for taking the time to look up that information. I must admit that I had hoped for French or Dutch, but that's how it goes when you take a chance on a 'one off' sword. More research might still produce clearer answers. The hilt on mine isn't a solid cast brass hilt, but in fact, two pieces. There is a German sword in Neumann's with the EXACT brass grip and same shaped quillon, so I still think mine is closer to early 19th. BTW, I'm driving to Beaufort, NC in the AM for the Pirate Invasion festival doing some sales/book signings! Gotta love it if it's pirate! CC, good to hear from you again as well and I also miss the naval stuff, but Fernando has a fantastic boarding ax (pair!) on that other thread! Hope to see more nautical stuff come up. Shakethetrees, what an awesome piece you have there! Was this militia involved in any conflicts or simply present to preserve community order? It does indeed resemble the French grenadiere pattern closely.

11th August 2016, 08:24 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hey Cap'n Mark You know I cant resist this stuff you come up with! Actually, as you know I get pretty involved with everything Mexican and Spanish colonial. The bookmobile is now dry docked at the very foot of the Superstition Mountains here in Arizona. These rugged defiles are really weird looking and it feels like the face of the sun here about 105-115 every day. The Spanish Colonial and Apache history is everywhere here, I picked up a monstrous Mexican Bowie with a cane cactus hilt that makes the Crocodile Dundee thing look like a keychain pocket knife! In most of the research on Mexican military related stuff, the methods and markings for units is pretty inconsistent, but these numbers and letters seem like them for some reason. There is something about these often irregular and unusual weapons which is fascinating, maybe its being in that climate here. Much of the data I found on regimentals was from a guy who has spent years excavating battle sites in Mexican areas and remote Texas etc. But, the notes by Corrado are relevant as well, and who knows it could be European. Have fun at the pirate gig!!!

11th August 2016, 08:43 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Jim, you live the life of an adventurer! Just don't be going out into those haunted mountains alone! I've seen some pretty scary stuff about the Superstition Mts. I'm just trying to keep an open mind about the piece. I want to post some better close-ups when I have time, showing the two part hilt and the quality of the blade. I'll also list the swords from Neumann's when I get the chance. In the meantime, a similar cousin to our little beasty? (From Sailor in Saddle again! I'm going to owe Dmitri big!!) http://www.sailorinsaddle.com/product.aspx?id=1393