BULL FIGHTING WEAPONS

drac2k · 10th August 2016, 03:55 AM

I would like to elaborate on the sword numbered 3.I had one that I was selling and it went off without any bids and I decided not to relist it because I rather liked it.A gentleman asked me if I would sell it,however, once it goes into my "black hole," of collecting, it usually never comes out.
After I informed the man that I was keeping it, he was most kind and told me that he was from a Mexican family of bullfighters and wrote to me the following:
".....the most valuable are from Valencia and Toledo Spain....there is some that are made in Mexico.....many for the tourist souvenir type,the markings are different....due to the lack or have a limited temper on the metal...not all are to be used in the bullfight for obvious reasons.
There is a history of why this sword has a cross member....or cruzeta.
In 1934 a famous matador named Juan Belmonte was ready to dispatch a bull ...in the process the animal moved the head violently and the matador lost his grip on the sword...the sword ended in the public sitting on the grades...killing a man.
There was another publicized incident,the matadors were aware of the dangers of the long swords and another fatality...this time the matador Ignacio Sanches Mejias had a leather strapped to his wrist holding the sword like a polo mallet, he lost control of the sword when stabbing the bull,he was gored and killed....
The authorities in Madrid Spain, opened a contest to find a solution to these issues.....out of 46 samples they selected 8....the new designs were tested in the slaughter houses and one was approved...the model that is used up to now is similar to the one you have...."
That is the sword #3;I thought that this was an interesting perspective that some might find useful.

carlos · 10th August 2016, 04:36 PM

I think number 1 and 2 is a hunting knife, in Spain his name is higüela, the picture 2 is a puntilla de desacabello, in this case his maker is Bermejo, a maker of edged weapons in Toledo.
Thanks for sharing
carlos

Jim McDougall · 11th August 2016, 05:34 AM

It is hard to guage how to respond in a thread on this topic, as it is almost inevitable that activists will have to express their views on this admittedly grim sport. In perspective however, it is a profound tradition of Spain and Latin America which has its roots in ancient history, and actually is quite similar to big game hunting it seems to me.
While obviously fatal to the bull, it is also dangerous and often fatal to the matadors and others in the ring, well over 500 human fatalities on record. The most recent was just last month.

I prefer, just as in studying weapons, to focus on the historical aspects of them, not their inherent purpose, though obviously it cannot be entirely ignored.

Apparantly the actual event of bullfights was introduced or at least popularized by Francisco Romero in Ronda, Spain c. 1726.
Without elaborating on more details and focus on the sword, I am wondering of the 'estoque' (piercing sword) used might have been of the type attached here (these produced c. 1690-1750s).

This is a cuphilt in this case but more of the rugged form typically termed 'caribbean' but perhaps the smaller grip etc might have been used in these 'fights'. The seemingly small grip and character of these always reminded me of bullfight swords.
The red cape covering the muleta stick and then the sword is of course theatrical, the bull cannot discern color and for that matter probably not the covered sword either.

Interesting on these daggers, which do seem very much like hunting knives.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th August 2016, 08:10 AM

In Oman they do it like this... See http://timesofoman.com/article/8957/...ng-Omani-Style

Jim McDougall · 11th August 2016, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

In Oman they do it like this... See http://timesofoman.com/article/8957/...ng-Omani-Style

Why does this seem familiar!!!!????

VANDOO · 11th August 2016, 04:18 PM

I HAVE WATCHED BULLS AND BUFFALO FIGHT MANY TIMES. AT CERTAIN TIMES OF THE YEAR YOU CAN SEE QUITE A FEW FIGHTS AT THE AREAS WHERE WE STILL HAVE HERDS OF BUFFALO IN OKLAHOMA AND OTHER PLACES. DEER CAN PUT UP QUITE A FIGHT AS WELL.

machinist · 11th August 2016, 04:51 PM

The Portuguese in California do it like this with velcro Bandilleras https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRzPPThS_M0

fernando · 11th August 2016, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It is hard to guage how to respond in a thread on this topic, as it is almost inevitable that activists will have to express their views on this admittedly grim sport...

If i may, Jim, one doesn't have to be an activist to recognize this era is past; one just has to introspect, i guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... In perspective however, it is a profound tradition of Spain and Latin America...

You forgot Portugal, for one; but even such countries where this 'sport' is traditional, are droping it, province by province, city by city.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... and actually is quite similar to big game hunting it seems to me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... While obviously fatal to the bull, it is also dangerous and often fatal to the matadors and others in the ring, well over 500 human fatalities on record. The most recent was just last month.

Bleeching the situation by citing that the bulfighter also dyes, is a joke; the ratio must be around one per one hundred thousand.

Ian · 11th August 2016, 08:38 PM

This thread has drawn significant negative comments from two of the Moderators (posted above) and I have received several PMs from members who are "offended" or "outraged."

The topic of bullfighting is obviously controversial, to say the least, and one which inflicts considerable suffering to the bull (and sometimes his protagonists). Many areas of the world where bullfighting has been popular are now curtailing the practice because of its brutality.

This thread is closed now, pending further discussion by the Moderators.

Robert · 13th August 2016, 03:50 AM

This thread is now open once more. Please everyone, as Jim said in the other thread;"let us keep to the subject of the weapons alone, and to leave the rest of the obvious controversy on the bullfighting issues out of the discussion."

Best,
Robert

drac2k · 13th August 2016, 04:51 PM

VANDOO, could you elaborate on item # 4, which to me looks like a riding crop? It does not appear to me to be an effective weapon.First, the handle appears to be very small, with no guard and made of metal;I imagine that it would be very difficult to hold, especially if sweat and blood were added into the mix.Another problem for me is that the blade appears to be very flimsy; is it cruciform; can you show us a picture of the naked blade.Since it looks like a riding crop, could it be an emergency weapon for the Picadors?

11th August 2016, 08:10 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	In Oman they do it like this... See http://timesofoman.com/article/8957/...ng-Omani-Style Attached Images

10th August 2016, 03:55 AM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,294	I would like to elaborate on the sword numbered 3.I had one that I was selling and it went off without any bids and I decided not to relist it because I rather liked it.A gentleman asked me if I would sell it,however, once it goes into my "black hole," of collecting, it usually never comes out. After I informed the man that I was keeping it, he was most kind and told me that he was from a Mexican family of bullfighters and wrote to me the following: ".....the most valuable are from Valencia and Toledo Spain....there is some that are made in Mexico.....many for the tourist souvenir type,the markings are different....due to the lack or have a limited temper on the metal...not all are to be used in the bullfight for obvious reasons. There is a history of why this sword has a cross member....or cruzeta. In 1934 a famous matador named Juan Belmonte was ready to dispatch a bull ...in the process the animal moved the head violently and the matador lost his grip on the sword...the sword ended in the public sitting on the grades...killing a man. There was another publicized incident,the matadors were aware of the dangers of the long swords and another fatality...this time the matador Ignacio Sanches Mejias had a leather strapped to his wrist holding the sword like a polo mallet, he lost control of the sword when stabbing the bull,he was gored and killed.... The authorities in Madrid Spain, opened a contest to find a solution to these issues.....out of 46 samples they selected 8....the new designs were tested in the slaughter houses and one was approved...the model that is used up to now is similar to the one you have...." That is the sword #3;I thought that this was an interesting perspective that some might find useful.

10th August 2016, 04:36 PM	#2
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 755	I think number 1 and 2 is a hunting knife, in Spain his name is higüela, the picture 2 is a puntilla de desacabello, in this case his maker is Bermejo, a maker of edged weapons in Toledo. Thanks for sharing carlos

11th August 2016, 05:34 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,668	It is hard to guage how to respond in a thread on this topic, as it is almost inevitable that activists will have to express their views on this admittedly grim sport. In perspective however, it is a profound tradition of Spain and Latin America which has its roots in ancient history, and actually is quite similar to big game hunting it seems to me. While obviously fatal to the bull, it is also dangerous and often fatal to the matadors and others in the ring, well over 500 human fatalities on record. The most recent was just last month. I prefer, just as in studying weapons, to focus on the historical aspects of them, not their inherent purpose, though obviously it cannot be entirely ignored. Apparantly the actual event of bullfights was introduced or at least popularized by Francisco Romero in Ronda, Spain c. 1726. Without elaborating on more details and focus on the sword, I am wondering of the 'estoque' (piercing sword) used might have been of the type attached here (these produced c. 1690-1750s). This is a cuphilt in this case but more of the rugged form typically termed 'caribbean' but perhaps the smaller grip etc might have been used in these 'fights'. The seemingly small grip and character of these always reminded me of bullfight swords. The red cape covering the muleta stick and then the sword is of course theatrical, the bull cannot discern color and for that matter probably not the covered sword either. Interesting on these daggers, which do seem very much like hunting knives. Attached Images

11th August 2016, 04:18 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE WATCHED BULLS AND BUFFALO FIGHT MANY TIMES. AT CERTAIN TIMES OF THE YEAR YOU CAN SEE QUITE A FEW FIGHTS AT THE AREAS WHERE WE STILL HAVE HERDS OF BUFFALO IN OKLAHOMA AND OTHER PLACES. DEER CAN PUT UP QUITE A FIGHT AS WELL.

11th August 2016, 04:51 PM	#7
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	The Portuguese in California do it like this with velcro Bandilleras https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRzPPThS_M0

11th August 2016, 08:38 PM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,519	This thread has drawn significant negative comments from two of the Moderators (posted above) and I have received several PMs from members who are "offended" or "outraged." The topic of bullfighting is obviously controversial, to say the least, and one which inflicts considerable suffering to the bull (and sometimes his protagonists). Many areas of the world where bullfighting has been popular are now curtailing the practice because of its brutality. This thread is closed now, pending further discussion by the Moderators.

13th August 2016, 03:50 AM	#10
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	This thread is now open once more. Please everyone, as Jim said in the other thread;"let us keep to the subject of the weapons alone, and to leave the rest of the obvious controversy on the bullfighting issues out of the discussion." Best, Robert

13th August 2016, 04:51 PM	#11
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,294	VANDOO, could you elaborate on item # 4, which to me looks like a riding crop? It does not appear to me to be an effective weapon.First, the handle appears to be very small, with no guard and made of metal;I imagine that it would be very difficult to hold, especially if sweat and blood were added into the mix.Another problem for me is that the blade appears to be very flimsy; is it cruciform; can you show us a picture of the naked blade.Since it looks like a riding crop, could it be an emergency weapon for the Picadors?