What is a KARUD?!

ariel · 6th August 2016, 04:13 AM

Guys,
Cool it, it's not worth arguing and creating "bad blood". It is just a name game, and most of it is determined by the locality of objects under discussion.

In Persia, khanjar is always double edged dagger, and pesh Kabz is always single edged. In Aravia proper , what is called khanjar in Oman ( Eastern part of the peninsula, under significant Persian influence) is called Janbia in Yemen ( purely Arabic Western part of the same peninsula). Balkan localities used the same term, -khanjar or hancer, - to designate what we call Yataghans. Caucasians used the word Khanjali ( modified Khanjar) for their straight daggers, and it was further simplified to Kindjal (likely) by the Russians.

Bichaq, pichaq, pichok, p'chak are just dialectic variants of the same Turcik word for "knife" , whereas Kard and Kord are just Persian and Tajik words for the same "knife". In practice, Uzbeki P'chak and Tajik Kord are physically indistinguishable despite passionate mutual dislike between these two ethnicities. There are more differences within each designation due to what village it was produced in, than between the two of them.

Karud ( Pesh Kabz with straight blade) is just one of the phonetic renditions of the Persian word Kard as heard by the Europeans: it was also recorded in the literature as Kared and Karde. And Choora ( a local analog of the"Karud" that is endemic to Eastern Afghanistan/Northwestern Pakistan, Khyber Pass) is the same "knife" , only stemming from Hindi language.

The bottom line, 90% of all short bladed weapons in the Indo-Persian areal are called just "knife", and the fancy differences we so passionately argue about are due to the ethnic roots of their owners: Hindi, Turcik or Persian.

The same eating implement to cut steaks or spread butter on a toast will be called messer in Germany, nozh in Russia, knife in England, couteau in France and sakin in Israel. These days all of them are likely to be cheaply mass produced in China or Brazil.

Is it worth arguing or writing articles about?

Cheer up! :-))))))))))

mariusgmioc · 6th August 2016, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Guys,
Cool it, it's not worth arguing and creating "bad blood". It is just a name game, and most of it is determined by the locality of objects under discussion.

In Persia, khanjar is always double edged dagger, and pesh Kabz is always single edged. In Aravia proper , what is called khanjar in Oman ( Eastern part of the peninsula, under significant Persian influence) is called Janbia in Yemen ( purely Arabic Western part of the same peninsula). Balkan localities used the same term, -khanjar or hancer, - to designate what we call Yataghans. Caucasians used the word Khanjali ( modified Khanjar) for their straight daggers, and it was further simplified to Kindjal (likely) by the Russians.

Bichaq, pichaq, pichok, p'chak are just dialectic variants of the same Turcik word for "knife" , whereas Kard and Kord are just Persian and Tajik words for the same "knife". In practice, Uzbeki P'chak and Tajik Kord are physically indistinguishable despite passionate mutual dislike between these two ethnicities. There are more differences within each designation due to what village it was produced in, than between the two of them.

Karud ( Pesh Kabz with straight blade) is just one of the phonetic renditions of the Persian word Kard as heard by the Europeans: it was also recorded in the literature as Kared and Karde. And Choora ( a local analog of the"Karud" that is endemic to Eastern Afghanistan/Northwestern Pakistan, Khyber Pass) is the same "knife" , only stemming from Hindi language.

The bottom line, 90% of all short bladed weapons in the Indo-Persian areal are called just "knife", and the fancy differences we so passionately argue about are due to the ethnic roots of their owners: Hindi, Turcik or Persian.

The same eating implement to cut steaks or spread butter on a toast will be called messer in Germany, nozh in Russia, knife in England, couteau in France and sakin in Israel. These days all of them are likely to be cheaply mass produced in China or Brazil.

Is it worth arguing or writing articles about?

Cheer up! :-))))))))))

Couldn't agree more!

Have a happy weekend!

Jim McDougall · 7th August 2016, 01:18 AM

Marius, I must say I admire your zeal in your approach in the study and investigation of ethnographic weapons in pro active participation in threads and discussions!
In the case of what we 'seniors' have come to regard as 'the name game' however, the discussion of most of these linguistic, transliterated or otherwise multiple errored terms usually becomes specious fodder for veiled arguments(=debates).

There is little agreement, if any, on the correct or proper use of the terms for many specific weapon forms in the ethnographic arena, and it is compounded as noted, by perpetuation in many long venerable references.

Though it would be great to have a sort of 'thesaurus' with a compendium of these many terms, it would be highly improbable as there are as many names for these as there are variations of all, and the task becomes almost infinite.

As far as collecting arms and the study of forms as it has been known since the somewhat formalizing of the pursuit through the 19th century, a rather informal collective glossary of terms has been established. While these are largely broadly accepted as descriptive terms, many are admittedly not entirely proper or correct.
As a medium for discussion however, and leaving semantics aside, it has proven best to use these as 'working' terms to avoid confusion and misunderstanding.

From a scholarly point of view however, it is certainly prudent, if not advisable to learn which terms are flawed linguistically, and if possible, the correct or alternate terms. The reason for this is that in the study of weapons historically, it is important to understand which terms might have been used at a certain time, in certain regions, for a certain form. This may be complicated ethnographically as often, numerous languages may be used there.
When we are investigating a weapon without advantage of some sort of depiction, we must rely on descriptions, and terms, and there is the rub.

With that, I hope I can emphasize, in these kinds of matters.....nobody is right, and nobody is wrong.......and both often in many cases.
There is absolutely no reason for argument or debate in discussing subjects as dynamic and subjective as with these terms, and the weapons they are used to refer to.
It is more important to view instances of use, period, locations etc. as variants and to place them comprehensively as cross referenced as possible.
Perhaps we might find some resolution together toward that 'thesaurus'!!! (if that is the right term

).....maybe I should say dictionary???

ariel · 7th August 2016, 02:54 AM

Agree.
Literally a minute ago I have learned from Lotfi that term Shibriya that IMMO ( In My Mistaken Opinion) was limited to Arabic daggers of a very specific contour coming from Northern Arabia ( Syria-Palestine). Apparently the same name is used for the daggers of a different configuration coming from Aravia Proper, and the term refers strictly to their size, and not their origin or configuration.

If possible, we really must classify weapons by their specific name, but it is possible only in limited circumstances. Indonesian weapons of absolutely identical appearance carry different names not only on different islands, but in different valleys of the same island. And, as Jim noticed, the overlays of poor transliterations by different European informers further created non-existent entities and masked the real ones. Is choora, churra, ch'hurra, chooree, churay the same dagger or 5 different ones? And what did the Afghanis meant by this name: a short dagger from the Khyber Pass or the massive "Salawar Yataghan":-)

This is not limited to exotic locations and days of yore: even now the same English word pronounced by the locals in different US States will be transcribed differently by a foreign observer. And if there are more than one of them, we will have a list longer than the Constitution:-))

Still, this "name game" may be a lot of fun on occasion. Just let's not go to the extremes with it: every convoluted and sophisticated argument in favor of a specific name is easily destroyed by a single example from the left field:-)

Cheers!

mariusgmioc · 7th August 2016, 08:25 AM

Hello Jim and Ariel,

Thank you very much for your opinions, with which I couldn't agree more!

As I said before, sometimes the debate itself is more important than reaching a conclusion, and even more so so when a clear cut conclusion is nowhere in sight.

Between black and white there are thousands shades of grey.

Have a nice weekend!

ariel · 7th August 2016, 05:12 PM

Have to correct myself: instead of "list longer than the Constitution" it should read " longer than "Fifty Shades of Grey":-)

estcrh · 7th August 2016, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

There is little agreement, if any, on the correct or proper use of the terms for many specific weapon forms in the ethnographic arena, and it is compounded as noted, by perpetuation in many long venerable references .................................................. .......................................

As far as collecting arms and the study of forms as it has been known since the somewhat formalizing of the pursuit through the 19th century, a rather informal collective glossary of terms has been established. While these are largely broadly accepted as descriptive terms, many are admittedly not entirely proper or correct.

As a medium for discussion however, and leaving semantics aside, it has proven best to use these as 'working' terms to avoid confusion and misunderstanding.

Jim, you have distilled the argument down to its basic roots. While not all people will use the same terms we all individually decide what terms are appropriate and we can also decide to change the terms we have previously used when we find a term we think is more accurate or appropriate.

mahratt · 7th August 2016, 09:06 PM

In fact, "psevdoshashka" is not the correct term. Correct to say - "Afghan shashka". We're talking "Bukhara shashka". "Pseudo" - is something unfinished. Afghan shashka - shashka by all indications.

estcrh · 8th August 2016, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

In fact, "psevdoshashka" is not the correct term. Correct to say - "Afghan shashka". We're talking "Bukhara shashka". "Pseudo" - is something unfinished. Afghan shashka - shashka by all indications.

Actually "pseudo" means that something is not authentic etc, such as these types of shashka are not real Caucasian shashka...etc.

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Actually "pseudo" means that something is not authentic etc, such as these types of shashka are not real Caucasian shashka...etc.

Ок. But we do not say "psevdocaucasian shashka"

Lebedinsky coined the term "psevdoshashka", knowing very little about those items. Meanwhile, Afghan shashka - a shashka on all grounds.

"The double standard"?

We're talking about "" Bukhara shashka". Why no one says it - "psevdoshashka"?

She does not look like a Caucasian shashka. It does not bother anyone

Afghan shashka we seek to be called -" psevdoshashka". Where is the logic?

One might think that there is no term "Karud" or use the term "psevdoshashka", remaining at the beginning - the mid-20th century. Can "hide one's head in the sand". And it is possible to generalize the available data, to think (and not only use books Lebedinsky and Stone) and deal with complex issues.

Good read other people's books. But it is even better think independently.

estcrh · 6th August 2016, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Guys,
Cool it, it's not worth arguing and creating "bad blood". It is just a name game, and most of it is determined by the locality of objects under discussion.

Ariel, what I have been discussing is the use of certain terms by Western collectors, dealers etc. This often has nothing to do with the terms used by local inhabitants. These Western terms are simply a means to categorize weapons (and armor) which can be easily identified by various traits.

These include kard, karud, pesh kabz, choora, khyber knife, khanjar, jambiya, khanjarli, chilanum, bichwa etc.

When someone insists that their choice of terms is the "correct" term they are not understanding the difference between historical accuracy and Western catagorization, there is often a big difference.

I do not speak Persian, Turkish, Arabic or any other language besides English, but I do know that just because current residents of these countries use or do not use a certain term does not necessarily mean that people who lived a hundred or more years ago used or did not use the same terms and I could really care less as far as catagorization goes.

These is no need to get angry or upset when someone decides to use a specific desctiptive term that they do not choose to use, no one is forcing anyone to use the same term but the reality is that different terms do exist and are used, there is usually no absolute right ot wrong.

Miguel · 7th August 2016, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Guys,
Cool it, it's not worth arguing and creating "bad blood". It is just a name game, and most of it is determined by the locality of objects under discussion.

In Persia, khanjar is always double edged dagger, and pesh Kabz is always single edged. In Aravia proper , what is called khanjar in Oman ( Eastern part of the peninsula, under significant Persian influence) is called Janbia in Yemen ( purely Arabic Western part of the same peninsula). Balkan localities used the same term, -khanjar or hancer, - to designate what we call Yataghans. Caucasians used the word Khanjali ( modified Khanjar) for their straight daggers, and it was further simplified to Kindjal (likely) by the Russians.

Bichaq, pichaq, pichok, p'chak are just dialectic variants of the same Turcik word for "knife" , whereas Kard and Kord are just Persian and Tajik words for the same "knife". In practice, Uzbeki P'chak and Tajik Kord are physically indistinguishable despite passionate mutual dislike between these two ethnicities. There are more differences within each designation due to what village it was produced in, than between the two of them.

Karud ( Pesh Kabz with straight blade) is just one of the phonetic renditions of the Persian word Kard as heard by the Europeans: it was also recorded in the literature as Kared and Karde. And Choora ( a local analog of the"Karud" that is endemic to Eastern Afghanistan/Northwestern Pakistan, Khyber Pass) is the same "knife" , only stemming from Hindi language.

The bottom line, 90% of all short bladed weapons in the Indo-Persian areal are called just "knife", and the fancy differences we so passionately argue about are due to the ethnic roots of their owners: Hindi, Turcik or Persian.

The same eating implement to cut steaks or spread butter on a toast will be called messer in Germany, nozh in Russia, knife in England, couteau in France and sakin in Israel. These days all of them are likely to be cheaply mass produced in China or Brazil.

Is it worth arguing or writing articles about?

Cheer up! :-))))))))))

Very well put.
Regards
Miguel

6th August 2016, 04:13 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Guys, Cool it, it's not worth arguing and creating "bad blood". It is just a name game, and most of it is determined by the locality of objects under discussion. In Persia, khanjar is always double edged dagger, and pesh Kabz is always single edged. In Aravia proper , what is called khanjar in Oman ( Eastern part of the peninsula, under significant Persian influence) is called Janbia in Yemen ( purely Arabic Western part of the same peninsula). Balkan localities used the same term, -khanjar or hancer, - to designate what we call Yataghans. Caucasians used the word Khanjali ( modified Khanjar) for their straight daggers, and it was further simplified to Kindjal (likely) by the Russians. Bichaq, pichaq, pichok, p'chak are just dialectic variants of the same Turcik word for "knife" , whereas Kard and Kord are just Persian and Tajik words for the same "knife". In practice, Uzbeki P'chak and Tajik Kord are physically indistinguishable despite passionate mutual dislike between these two ethnicities. There are more differences within each designation due to what village it was produced in, than between the two of them. Karud ( Pesh Kabz with straight blade) is just one of the phonetic renditions of the Persian word Kard as heard by the Europeans: it was also recorded in the literature as Kared and Karde. And Choora ( a local analog of the"Karud" that is endemic to Eastern Afghanistan/Northwestern Pakistan, Khyber Pass) is the same "knife" , only stemming from Hindi language. The bottom line, 90% of all short bladed weapons in the Indo-Persian areal are called just "knife", and the fancy differences we so passionately argue about are due to the ethnic roots of their owners: Hindi, Turcik or Persian. The same eating implement to cut steaks or spread butter on a toast will be called messer in Germany, nozh in Russia, knife in England, couteau in France and sakin in Israel. These days all of them are likely to be cheaply mass produced in China or Brazil. Is it worth arguing or writing articles about? Cheer up! :-))))))))))

7th August 2016, 01:18 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Marius, I must say I admire your zeal in your approach in the study and investigation of ethnographic weapons in pro active participation in threads and discussions! In the case of what we 'seniors' have come to regard as 'the name game' however, the discussion of most of these linguistic, transliterated or otherwise multiple errored terms usually becomes specious fodder for veiled arguments(=debates). There is little agreement, if any, on the correct or proper use of the terms for many specific weapon forms in the ethnographic arena, and it is compounded as noted, by perpetuation in many long venerable references. Though it would be great to have a sort of 'thesaurus' with a compendium of these many terms, it would be highly improbable as there are as many names for these as there are variations of all, and the task becomes almost infinite. As far as collecting arms and the study of forms as it has been known since the somewhat formalizing of the pursuit through the 19th century, a rather informal collective glossary of terms has been established. While these are largely broadly accepted as descriptive terms, many are admittedly not entirely proper or correct. As a medium for discussion however, and leaving semantics aside, it has proven best to use these as 'working' terms to avoid confusion and misunderstanding. From a scholarly point of view however, it is certainly prudent, if not advisable to learn which terms are flawed linguistically, and if possible, the correct or alternate terms. The reason for this is that in the study of weapons historically, it is important to understand which terms might have been used at a certain time, in certain regions, for a certain form. This may be complicated ethnographically as often, numerous languages may be used there. When we are investigating a weapon without advantage of some sort of depiction, we must rely on descriptions, and terms, and there is the rub. With that, I hope I can emphasize, in these kinds of matters.....nobody is right, and nobody is wrong.......and both often in many cases. There is absolutely no reason for argument or debate in discussing subjects as dynamic and subjective as with these terms, and the weapons they are used to refer to. It is more important to view instances of use, period, locations etc. as variants and to place them comprehensively as cross referenced as possible. Perhaps we might find some resolution together toward that 'thesaurus'!!! (if that is the right term ).....maybe I should say dictionary???

7th August 2016, 02:54 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Agree. Literally a minute ago I have learned from Lotfi that term Shibriya that IMMO ( In My Mistaken Opinion) was limited to Arabic daggers of a very specific contour coming from Northern Arabia ( Syria-Palestine). Apparently the same name is used for the daggers of a different configuration coming from Aravia Proper, and the term refers strictly to their size, and not their origin or configuration. If possible, we really must classify weapons by their specific name, but it is possible only in limited circumstances. Indonesian weapons of absolutely identical appearance carry different names not only on different islands, but in different valleys of the same island. And, as Jim noticed, the overlays of poor transliterations by different European informers further created non-existent entities and masked the real ones. Is choora, churra, ch'hurra, chooree, churay the same dagger or 5 different ones? And what did the Afghanis meant by this name: a short dagger from the Khyber Pass or the massive "Salawar Yataghan":-) This is not limited to exotic locations and days of yore: even now the same English word pronounced by the locals in different US States will be transcribed differently by a foreign observer. And if there are more than one of them, we will have a list longer than the Constitution:-)) Still, this "name game" may be a lot of fun on occasion. Just let's not go to the extremes with it: every convoluted and sophisticated argument in favor of a specific name is easily destroyed by a single example from the left field:-) Cheers!

7th August 2016, 08:25 AM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Hello Jim and Ariel, Thank you very much for your opinions, with which I couldn't agree more! As I said before, sometimes the debate itself is more important than reaching a conclusion, and even more so so when a clear cut conclusion is nowhere in sight. Between black and white there are thousands shades of grey. Have a nice weekend!

7th August 2016, 05:12 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Have to correct myself: instead of "list longer than the Constitution" it should read " longer than "Fifty Shades of Grey":-)

7th August 2016, 09:06 PM	#8
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	In fact, "psevdoshashka" is not the correct term. Correct to say - "Afghan shashka". We're talking "Bukhara shashka". "Pseudo" - is something unfinished. Afghan shashka - shashka by all indications.