What is a KARUD?!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

That would be also my understanding in the light of all discussed above. Both sets of photos are very clear and clarifying. Thank you again!

However, in your first photos, what you call Jambiya, I would have called Khanjar. For me Jambiya would be the typical Yemeni/Saudi dagger (as well as the Omani Khanjar).

What do you think about this?

But maybe we should open a new thread to debate the difference between Jambyia and Khanjar?!

Jambiya have a single curved, double edged blade, khanjar have a double curved, double edged blade. People from Arabian regions often interchange these terms but there is a very noticeable difference between the two blade types. Jambiya and khanjar are two more examples of descriptive terms which allows people to instantly know which dagger you are describing.

Once again were are talking about how these two terms are generally used in the West by English speaking collectors and dealers etc and not by the cultures that actually used them.

Two examples from Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour By Lord Egerton of Tatton and India: Art and Culture, 1300-1900 By Stuart Cary Welch, Metropolitan Museum of Art (New York, N.Y.)

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Jambiya have a single curved, double edged blade, khanjar have a double curved, double edged blade. People from Arabian regions often interchange these terms but there is a very noticeable difference between the two blade types. Jambiya and khanjar are two more examples of descriptive terms which allows people to instantly know which dagger you are describing.

Once again were are talking about how these two terms are generally used in the West by English speaking collectors and dealers etc and not by the cultures that actually used them.

Two examples from Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour By Lord Egerton of Tatton and India: Art and Culture, 1300-1900 By Stuart Cary Welch, Metropolitan Museum of Art (New York, N.Y.)

I beg to differ on this one!

Khanjar is a Persian/Arabic word and they use it for their single curved daggers.

It was imported to India together with the expansion of the Mughal Empire and so the Indians adopted the term for many of their daggers (especially those from the Northern part), single or double curved.

Restricting the term to only double curved daggers, I think would be wrong as it would exclude precisely the daggers where it originated from.



PS: You can also check what Artzi has to say on this one too!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I beg to differ on this one!

Khanjar is a Persian/Arabic word and they use it for their single curved daggers.

It was imported to India together with the expansion of the Mughal Empire and so the Indians adopted the term for many of their daggers (especially those from the Northern part), single or double curved.

Restricting the term to only double curved daggers, I think would be wrong as it would exclude precisely the daggers where it originated from.



PS: You can also check what Artzi has to say on this one too!

Sorry, I have to go with Stuart Cary Welch here.

His first paid position at Harvard was in 1956, as honorary assistant keeper of Islamic Art at the Fogg Museum. He later developed one of the first curricula for Islamic and Indian art. He was curator of Islamic and Later Indian art at the Harvard Art Museum, and from 1979 to 1987, he was also special consultant for the department of Islamic art at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Welch taught at Harvard until his retirement in 1995, and he donated much of his collection to the school. The remainder of his personal collection was auctioned by Sotheby's in 2011. On 6 April 2011, a single page from the Shahnameh of Shah Tahmasp (The Houghton Shahnameh) of which Weich was the leading scholar, was sold for 7.4 million pounds ($12 million).

Do you really think that these completely different blade types should have the same name?

[Miguel]

Absolutely fascinating post Marius, something that I have wondered myself and now have a better understanding, it is better than any reference books, cant wait for the next reply. Brilliant.
Regards
Miguel

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Sorry, I have to go with Stuart Cary Welch here.




Do you really think that these completely different blade types should have the same name?

First, they are not absolutely different.

Second,
1. What about Artzi who you cited as being very knowledgeable and thrustworthy yourself?!
2. What about Stone, page 351, and page 353 fig. 1?!
3. What about Elgood, Arms & Armour at the Jaipur Court, pages 53 and 54?!
4. What about Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani, Arms and Armor from Iran, from page 219 on
5, What about Withers & Capwell, The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Knives, Swords, Spears & Daggers, page 228, 229
7. What about the millions and millions of Persians who probably invented both the dagger and the word, used it for centuries and continue to use it in the present calling it Khanjar (photos 4, 5).
8. What about the millions and millions of Omanis who probably invented the specific variety of dagger (the one with the belt in the photo 3), used it for centuries and continue to use it in the present calling it Khanjar?!
9. What about the millions and millions of North Indians who used it for centuries and continue to use it in the present calling it Khanjar whether curved or double curved (photos 1, 2)?!



However, ultimately it is a matter of choice, and the choice is yours. If you want to give Stuart Cary Welch credit over the millions of Persians who invented the dagger and the word...

PS: The definition for Khanjar you used in your posting (the excerpt from the book) perfectly describes my examples as well. According to the definition you mentioned they are all Khanjars. In English "recurved" simply means curved backwards, NOT double curved. Moreover, the Persians and the Arabs who are credited with originating this word, would not refer to a double curved dagger since they don't use such a dagger but a simple "recurved" one (as in photos 3-5).

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

In English "recurved" simply means curved backwards, NOT double curved.

I think you are wrong, recurved refers to a blade that curves twice.

From Arms and Armor By DK Publishing and Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India By E. Jaiwant Paul.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

I think you are wrong, recurved refers to a blade that curves twice.

I thought exactly the same... until I bothered to check with some dictionaries of English language. Check it yourself!

And even if it were to mean double curve, what about the millions of Persians, Arabs and Indians who use this type of dagger with single curve and call it Khanjar?!

Try telling an Omani that he is using a Jambyia because an academic in UK, who knows better, decided this way!


PS I have the book of Jaiwant Paul, but he makes the distinction because of the hilt, not because of the blade. I have been to India and I can assure you the Indians (at least all to whom I spoke with) do not distinguish between single or double curve dagger that has the typical grip and call them both either Khanjar or Mughal dagger providing they have the "pistol" hilt. However they call Jambyia the Persian Khanjars with "I" shaped hilt.

Photo taken in the fort museum of Jodhpur. All daggers on the left were called Khanjars. The two Karuds, were called Peshkabz.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

And even if it were to mean double curve, what about the millions of Persians, Arabs and Indians who use this type of dagger with single curve and call it Khanjar?!

Try telling an Omani that he is using a Jambyia because an academic in UK, who knows better, decided this way!

When it comes to daggers "recurved" means double curved. As I mentioned already, in English speaking countries it is not what the local people call a certain weapon that determines the eventual description in English. What an Omani calls his dagger is a seperate issue. Since many of these weapons are used in several countries what determines which particular culture gets naming rights?