Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 29th July 2016, 07:37 PM   #1
Miguel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
Default Congo or not?

Hello Everyone,

I would be grateful if someone could verify the origin of this Knife/Sword. I think it may be Ngombe from the Congo but I am not sure. It is a simple but pleasing design with incised patterns on both sides of the double edged blade. On half of one side on each side of the blade looks like a stylised snake or lizard beautifully done, in my opinion. The handle seems to be bone fixed very firmly to the blade shank.
O/L16.5 ins, Blade length 13.25 ins x 3 ins wide.
Thanking you in anticipation
Regards
Miguel
Attached Images
   
Miguel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2016, 07:43 PM   #2
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,290
Default

I've got a feeling that's not bone.
Rick is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2016, 08:58 PM   #3
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,194
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I've got a feeling that's not bone.
I agree, Rick. Miguel, can you show us a picture of the end of the hilt to see what this material looks like in cross section? That would be very informative.

Ian.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2016, 01:09 AM   #4
Congoblades
Member
 
Congoblades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Belgium
Posts: 171
Default

Nice Lokele knife, Congo. Is there a hole in de back of the handle? Most of them have a weight on the handle.
Congoblades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2016, 09:39 AM   #5
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,806
Default

Looks like ivory to me. Ni e piece.
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2016, 07:21 PM   #6
Miguel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
I agree, Rick. Miguel, can you show us a picture of the end of the hilt to see what this material looks like in cross section? That would be very informative.

Ian.
Hello Ian, thanks for your reply interesting I thought it was bone. I have not got a photo showing the end but will take one and post it to see if you can make out what the material is, it may not be till Monday.
Regards
Miguel
Miguel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2016, 07:32 PM   #7
Miguel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Congoblades
Nice Lokele knife, Congo. Is there a hole in de back of the handle? Most of them have a weight on the handle.
Hello Congoblades, thanks for your reply, much appreciated, there is a hole in the end of the handle that the tang is bent over in. you will be able to see when I post the photo requested by Ian. Have you any thoughts on the handle material, significance of the lizard/snake decoration and possible age? I love these weapons of the Congo thir shapes and decoration fascinate me.
Regards
Miguel
Miguel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2016, 07:38 PM   #8
Miguel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
Default

Hello Rick and Tim, thanks for your reply Ive always thought it to be bone, it will be interesting to see what the others make of it when the see a photo of the end.
Regards
Miguel
Miguel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2016, 07:58 PM   #9
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,903
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
Hello Rick and Tim, thanks for your reply Ive always thought it to be bone, it will be interesting to see what the others make of it when the see a photo of the end.
Regards
Miguel
I'm pretty sure it's ivory.

Maybe some cleaning/polishing will return it to its former glory. Not that you can't leave it like it is now.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2016, 08:07 PM   #10
Congoblades
Member
 
Congoblades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Belgium
Posts: 171
Default

It is definitely an old one, how old exactly is hard to tell (some experts can ). To be safe I would say first quarter of the 20th century.
If the handle has the same age as the blade it would be ivory for sure.
About the decoration, I don't see a lizard or snake.
Attached Images
   
Congoblades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 08:12 PM   #11
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,806
Default

Taken out of the symmetry of the blade there could be a snake in the decoration, a common motif on African blades.
Attached Images
 
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 10:24 PM   #12
Congoblades
Member
 
Congoblades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Belgium
Posts: 171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Simmons
Taken out of the symmetry of the blade there could be a snake in the decoration, a common motif on African blades.
Africa is a very large and diverse continent, saying that it is a common motif on blades is a bit strange. If you want to see a snake in it that's fine for me, but why should there be a snake on a knife from the So, Olombe or Lokele blacksmiths who produces such type of knives?
Congoblades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2016, 07:17 PM   #13
Miguel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
Hello Ian, thanks for your reply interesting I thought it was bone. I have not got a photo showing the end but will take one and post it to see if you can make out what the material is, it may not be till Monday.
Regards
Miguel
Hi Ian, sorry for the delay but I could not remember which box I had stored it in and as I have, over the years, accumulated a large amount of weapons it as taken me much longer to find than I intended. Will have to number boxes and catalogue contents
Any way I have taken a few more photos and shown the end of the handle from which I hope you can tell whether or not it is bone or ivory. Incidently can you see a snake or lizard on the blade decoration.
Regards
Miguel
Attached Images
       
Miguel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2016, 07:27 PM   #14
Miguel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Congoblades
It is definitely an old one, how old exactly is hard to tell (some experts can ). To be safe I would say first quarter of the 20th century.
If the handle has the same age as the blade it would be ivory for sure.
About the decoration, I don't see a lizard or snake.
Hello Congoblades, I probabely have an over active imagination and can definitely see a stylised snake in the decoration. It just looks like one even though it may not have been the intention of the Smith who produced it. I think it is due to the decoration following the outline of the blade.
Regards
Miguel
Miguel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2016, 07:33 PM   #15
Miguel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Simmons
Taken out of the symmetry of the blade there could be a snake in the decoration, a common motif on African blades.
Hi Tim, I'm pleased that you also can make out a snake in the decoration but as I explained to Congoblades I think it is due to it following the blade contour.
Regards
Miguel
Miguel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2016, 08:24 PM   #16
Pieje
Member
 
Pieje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 132
Default

It's indeed similar to Lokele knives but the general shape of the blade and its decoration point towards the BENGE.

Check this old thread for an example of such BENGE sword in the book "Panga na visu".
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16673

First quarter of the 20th century seems ok.
Handle material seems definitely ivory to me.
Pieje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2016, 10:14 PM   #17
asomotif
Member
 
asomotif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,224
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I've got a feeling that's not bone.
Toothbone
asomotif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2016, 10:17 PM   #18
asomotif
Member
 
asomotif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,224
Default

Ps. nice weapon.

I would not clean or polish anything on this one.
Maybe rub the hilt firmly with a clean cotton cloth. Often this is enough to remove old dirt and or grease.

Best regards,
Willem
asomotif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2016, 07:11 PM   #19
Miguel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
Ps. nice weapon.

I would not clean or polish anything on this one.
Maybe rub the hilt firmly with a clean cotton cloth. Often this is enough to remove old dirt and or grease.

Best regards,
Willem
Hi Willem, my thoughts entirely.
Regards
Miguel
Miguel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2016, 07:24 PM   #20
Miguel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pieje
It's indeed similar to Lokele knives but the general shape of the blade and its decoration point towards the BENGE.

Check this old thread for an example of such BENGE sword in the book "Panga na visu".
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16673

First quarter of the 20th century seems ok.
Handle material seems definitely ivory to me.
Hello Pieje, thank you for your reply and link. As you say the blade shape and decoration on the Benge sword are identical even the two small holes which I thought represented the snake`s eyes, I find it confusing to differentiate between the varius tribal weapons when the blade shapes are so similar but I think the decoration seems to clinch this one as Benge. Thanks again for your interest.
Regards
Miguel
Miguel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2016, 07:47 PM   #21
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,194
Default

Miguel:

That is definitely elephant ivory on the hilt. The criss-cross pattern in cross section is typical of ivory.

As far as a snake or lizard, I can see the general form of a reptile but it may be something else. It's always hard to tell with these geometric shapes and without knowledge of the culture and its artistic preferences I would say it is difficult to be certain what we are looking at.

Ian
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2016, 07:53 PM   #22
Miguel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Miguel:

That is definitely elephant ivory on the hilt. The criss-cross pattern in cross section is typical of ivory.

As far as a snake or lizard, I can see the general form of a reptile but it may be something else. It's always hard to tell with these geometric shapes and without knowledge of the culture and its artistic preferences I would say it is difficult to be certain what we are looking at.

Ian
Hi Ian, thanks for your reply, it would seem that everyone is in agreement that the hilt is ivory. It also appears that the origin of this weapon is Benge due to the blade shape and particularly the decoration which I am sure now is purely decoration and not meant to represent a snake or lizard, it is just that it follows the shape of the blade which makes it appear such.
I have wondered about the size of the hilt as it is to small for my hand. The original owner must have had a small hand.
Do you know of any othe reference works on African weapons written in English besides Christopher Spring`s work as all the references on these weapons seem mainly German, French and Belgian works, if so I would be grateful if you would let me know.
Regards
Miguel
Miguel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2016, 08:14 PM   #23
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,903
Default

It is as I suspected: elephant ivory.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2016, 12:41 AM   #24
Pieje
Member
 
Pieje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 132
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel
Do you know of any othe reference works on African weapons written in English besides Christopher Spring`s work as all the references on these weapons seem mainly German, French and Belgian works, if so I would be grateful if you would let me know.
Regards
Miguel
There are indeed only a few books written in English.
This is a good one, not a thick book, but also not expensive.

https://www.amazon.com/African-Metal.../dp/B001E2D01E
Pieje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2016, 07:45 PM   #25
Miguel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pieje
There are indeed only a few books written in English.
This is a good one, not a thick book, but also not expensive.

https://www.amazon.com/African-Metal.../dp/B001E2D01E
Thanks Pieje I am indebted to you and will endeavour to purchase this book.
Regards
Miguel
Miguel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2016, 07:48 PM   #26
Miguel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
It is as I suspected: elephant ivory.
Go to the front of the class
Regards
Miguel
Miguel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2016, 09:04 PM   #27
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,178
Default

watch out for CITES. the touchy feely brigade will be out to get you if you ever need to ship it thru a national border or sell it, you will need proof it is antique, only a note from the original elephant is acceptable to them. maybe not even then. see recent thread here on desecration of antique weapons that had antique ivory by those wonderfully informed people at the UK border force for bonham's.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th August 2016, 07:59 PM   #28
Miguel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
watch out for CITES. the touchy feely brigade will be out to get you if you ever need to ship it thru a national border or sell it, you will need proof it is antique, only a note from the original elephant is acceptable to them. maybe not even then. see recent thread here on desecration of antique weapons that had antique ivory by those wonderfully informed people at the UK border force for bonham's.
Thanks for the reminder, its getting pretty ridiculous here in the UK regarding all types of edged weapons antique or otherwise. In the past we were one of the worst offenders of Elephant hunting. I deplor the indiscriminate slaughter of any animal but it seems senseless to me to destroy works of art made from the ivory of an animal killed 50, a hundred or more years ago because you cant prove it to their satisfaction,
Regards
Miguel
Miguel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th August 2016, 08:09 PM   #29
Miguel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pieje
There are indeed only a few books written in English.
This is a good one, not a thick book, but also not expensive.

https://www.amazon.com/African-Metal.../dp/B001E2D01E
Hi Pieje, I forgot to ask if you know the location in the Congo of the Benge people and if they have another name. I have spent some time searching for them and although the name appears that is all no other information about them. That is why I am wondering if they have another name as some other ethnic groups in he Congo have.
Regards
Miguel
Miguel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.