Jamdhar katari - a theory

ariel · 3rd August 2016, 11:42 AM

Jens,
The same was true about Caucasian weapons, with no known examples of kindjals and shashkas older than 18 century, and in Turkey, with no known examples before (roughly) the reign of Mehmet II.

The higher the intensity of warfare in a society, the lower the chance for the older examples to survive.

Also, on a second thought, I might have been wrong insisting on a more functional grip: the earliest examples of katar might have been ( and likely were) uncomfortable and engineeringly silly. But they had the "grain of truth" in them, and that preserved the idea for a while, providing time for successive generations to introduce improvements. Karl Benz's first production automobile would not have been a Car of the Year in 2016:-)

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd August 2016, 12:52 PM

Ariel, it is quite funny. When I yesterday thought about the subject, it was exactly Karl Benz's first car I was thinking of, and how the cars look to day.

ariel · 3rd August 2016, 12:54 PM

Some minds think alike .
Not necessarily great, but not shabby either:-)

Miguel · 3rd August 2016, 07:51 PM

I still have my doubts as to whether a Katar of the form shown actually existed until more conclusive evidence comes to light, at the moment the resons given for not finding at least part of one don't stack up to me.
Miguel

ariel · 3rd August 2016, 08:48 PM

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

:-)))))

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd August 2016, 09:25 PM

Ariel, I love you quote :-).

Miguel, it is fine with me - all members of this forum can believe in what they want.
Should I make a suggestion, it would be, that you try to investigate the katar thread further than I have done - it may take you a year or so, and then 'maybe' be can agree on something.

Jim McDougall · 4th August 2016, 02:04 AM

Ariel, always loved that quote from Shakespeare!!!

Jens,
You have only tenaciously studied the katar almost obsessively for 15 years that I know of!!!!

and you had already been at it for years. Your collecting and researching on them has in my opinion surpassed the Victoria & Albert and others, and has had the attention of the Met in N.Y. and others.
I have seen you research some examples virtually to the very precise location in India where it was made! and the article on the Bundi katars is superb.
Then I remember years ago as you were studying friezes, temple iconography, miniatures, rare Indian articles and obscure books (this was even before Robert Elgood wrote Hindu Arms and Ritual in 2004). We pursued the bizarre gauntlet dagger/sword in Stone which was referred to as a boarding weapon termed a 'manople' and his source in Calvert (1903) which was not apparently related in this case.

When it comes to katars (and tulwars) there is nobody I know, or have known who has the knowledge on these weapons you do.

I am saying this simply because Jens' will not and will probably bend my ear for doing so. I would just like to profoundly note just who he is in the study of Indian arms. Though I have studied arms most of my life, most of what I have learned on Indian weapons has been from him and subjects we studied together.

Miguel · 4th August 2016, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ariel, I love you quote :-).

Miguel, it is fine with me - all members of this forum can believe in what they want.
Should I make a suggestion, it would be, that you try to investigate the katar thread further than I have done - it may take you a year or so, and then 'maybe' be can agree on something.

Hi Jens,
My opinion seems to have caused offence and I sincerely apologise if it has offended you as this was never my intention far from it I was just stating what I think. I will not take you up on your suggestion as I do not have it in me to carry out such research even if I had the time and resources, I have driven myself batty trying to establish the origin of the Coorgs without any success. My opinion was not intended in any way to belittle your research and I trust you will believe that.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 4th August 2016, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

:-)))))

Nicely put.

3rd August 2016, 11:42 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jens, The same was true about Caucasian weapons, with no known examples of kindjals and shashkas older than 18 century, and in Turkey, with no known examples before (roughly) the reign of Mehmet II. The higher the intensity of warfare in a society, the lower the chance for the older examples to survive. Also, on a second thought, I might have been wrong insisting on a more functional grip: the earliest examples of katar might have been ( and likely were) uncomfortable and engineeringly silly. But they had the "grain of truth" in them, and that preserved the idea for a while, providing time for successive generations to introduce improvements. Karl Benz's first production automobile would not have been a Car of the Year in 2016:-)

3rd August 2016, 12:52 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, it is quite funny. When I yesterday thought about the subject, it was exactly Karl Benz's first car I was thinking of, and how the cars look to day.

3rd August 2016, 12:54 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Some minds think alike . Not necessarily great, but not shabby either:-)

3rd August 2016, 07:51 PM	#4
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	I still have my doubts as to whether a Katar of the form shown actually existed until more conclusive evidence comes to light, at the moment the resons given for not finding at least part of one don't stack up to me. Miguel

3rd August 2016, 08:48 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." :-)))))

3rd August 2016, 09:25 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, I love you quote :-). Miguel, it is fine with me - all members of this forum can believe in what they want. Should I make a suggestion, it would be, that you try to investigate the katar thread further than I have done - it may take you a year or so, and then 'maybe' be can agree on something.

4th August 2016, 02:04 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,537	Ariel, always loved that quote from Shakespeare!!! Jens, You have only tenaciously studied the katar almost obsessively for 15 years that I know of!!!! and you had already been at it for years. Your collecting and researching on them has in my opinion surpassed the Victoria & Albert and others, and has had the attention of the Met in N.Y. and others. I have seen you research some examples virtually to the very precise location in India where it was made! and the article on the Bundi katars is superb. Then I remember years ago as you were studying friezes, temple iconography, miniatures, rare Indian articles and obscure books (this was even before Robert Elgood wrote Hindu Arms and Ritual in 2004). We pursued the bizarre gauntlet dagger/sword in Stone which was referred to as a boarding weapon termed a 'manople' and his source in Calvert (1903) which was not apparently related in this case. When it comes to katars (and tulwars) there is nobody I know, or have known who has the knowledge on these weapons you do. I am saying this simply because Jens' will not and will probably bend my ear for doing so. I would just like to profoundly note just who he is in the study of Indian arms. Though I have studied arms most of my life, most of what I have learned on Indian weapons has been from him and subjects we studied together.