Jamdhar katari - a theory

ariel · 2nd August 2016, 10:45 PM

I have very little doubt that similar examples existed early on: the statue is a perfect iconographic evidence.

I do not think that sidebars are very crucial determinants of a firm and secure grip; they are more like rudimentary bazu-bands, providing protection to the forearms. My only suggestion is about the handbar: perfectly round, it would twist in the hand, but some change in geometry ( flattening, checkering, more complex profile etc) would largely fix the problem. Regretfully, the statue does not show us the true (?) profile, and the lithograph was likely copied from the statue and " simplified" the handbar.

Just Google "pushdagger": none of the modern ones have sidebars, but their handbars are all flattened or "distorted" to assure good grip.

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd August 2016, 10:23 AM

Kubur, In India the dead ones were burned - with or without their weapons, I dont know. In other countries the dead ones were burried with their weapons, and so we have weapons, and know how old they are.
In India, when weapons were worn, or went out of fashion, they were melted down and new weapons were made of the iron/steel. This is why really old weapons are more than rare, and I doubt that weapons from the 10th century would be impossible to find.
In Khorasan they have found parts of a sword from the 9 th century, but it was burried together with the former owner - so it was found in a grave.

Ariel, I agree with you about the grip/hilt of this katar, but I cant explain why it was made so. One can always start guessing, but it haardly brings us closer to the truth.

ariel · 3rd August 2016, 11:42 AM

Jens,
The same was true about Caucasian weapons, with no known examples of kindjals and shashkas older than 18 century, and in Turkey, with no known examples before (roughly) the reign of Mehmet II.

The higher the intensity of warfare in a society, the lower the chance for the older examples to survive.

Also, on a second thought, I might have been wrong insisting on a more functional grip: the earliest examples of katar might have been ( and likely were) uncomfortable and engineeringly silly. But they had the "grain of truth" in them, and that preserved the idea for a while, providing time for successive generations to introduce improvements. Karl Benz's first production automobile would not have been a Car of the Year in 2016:-)

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd August 2016, 12:52 PM

Ariel, it is quite funny. When I yesterday thought about the subject, it was exactly Karl Benz's first car I was thinking of, and how the cars look to day.

ariel · 3rd August 2016, 12:54 PM

Some minds think alike .
Not necessarily great, but not shabby either:-)

Miguel · 3rd August 2016, 07:51 PM

I still have my doubts as to whether a Katar of the form shown actually existed until more conclusive evidence comes to light, at the moment the resons given for not finding at least part of one don't stack up to me.
Miguel

ariel · 3rd August 2016, 08:48 PM

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

:-)))))

2nd August 2016, 10:45 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have very little doubt that similar examples existed early on: the statue is a perfect iconographic evidence. I do not think that sidebars are very crucial determinants of a firm and secure grip; they are more like rudimentary bazu-bands, providing protection to the forearms. My only suggestion is about the handbar: perfectly round, it would twist in the hand, but some change in geometry ( flattening, checkering, more complex profile etc) would largely fix the problem. Regretfully, the statue does not show us the true (?) profile, and the lithograph was likely copied from the statue and " simplified" the handbar. Just Google "pushdagger": none of the modern ones have sidebars, but their handbars are all flattened or "distorted" to assure good grip.

3rd August 2016, 10:23 AM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Kubur, In India the dead ones were burned - with or without their weapons, I dont know. In other countries the dead ones were burried with their weapons, and so we have weapons, and know how old they are. In India, when weapons were worn, or went out of fashion, they were melted down and new weapons were made of the iron/steel. This is why really old weapons are more than rare, and I doubt that weapons from the 10th century would be impossible to find. In Khorasan they have found parts of a sword from the 9 th century, but it was burried together with the former owner - so it was found in a grave. Ariel, I agree with you about the grip/hilt of this katar, but I cant explain why it was made so. One can always start guessing, but it haardly brings us closer to the truth.

3rd August 2016, 11:42 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jens, The same was true about Caucasian weapons, with no known examples of kindjals and shashkas older than 18 century, and in Turkey, with no known examples before (roughly) the reign of Mehmet II. The higher the intensity of warfare in a society, the lower the chance for the older examples to survive. Also, on a second thought, I might have been wrong insisting on a more functional grip: the earliest examples of katar might have been ( and likely were) uncomfortable and engineeringly silly. But they had the "grain of truth" in them, and that preserved the idea for a while, providing time for successive generations to introduce improvements. Karl Benz's first production automobile would not have been a Car of the Year in 2016:-)

3rd August 2016, 12:52 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, it is quite funny. When I yesterday thought about the subject, it was exactly Karl Benz's first car I was thinking of, and how the cars look to day.

3rd August 2016, 12:54 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Some minds think alike . Not necessarily great, but not shabby either:-)

3rd August 2016, 07:51 PM	#6
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	I still have my doubts as to whether a Katar of the form shown actually existed until more conclusive evidence comes to light, at the moment the resons given for not finding at least part of one don't stack up to me. Miguel

3rd August 2016, 08:48 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." :-)))))