Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades

[ulfberth]

I don't know were Hermann Historica got the information about crescent moons used as a mark by Ulrich Diefstetter,
perhaps they had a reference we don't know about yet.
I thought both swords were nice examples that fit in this post "Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades "
It would be interesting to find out if the crescent moons were used by this family of sword makers or not.
We do know that they were used by various makers, the earliest I found so far are these two similar hand and a half swords.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for posting these Ulfberth!!! and that sword is a beauty!

As far as I have known, the crescent 'man in the moon' stamps were originally used by the 'espaderos del Rey' (sword makers for the king) in Spain, and this particular mark was widely copied in Solingen and Munich.
It was not specific to a certain maker, but became more of an accompanying symbol of imbued quality suggesting the Toledo associations.

The cross and orb and other markings such as the 'Passau Wolf' also became widely used as many other markings in these capacities.

It seems that Stantler was more known to have used these moons as he used Spanish names and the stamps recorded in Palomares on many blades. Diefstetter as noted used flails as a mark, but it would not be surprising in my opinion to see these moons on his blades.

[blue lander]

I'd like to throw this odd tulwar into the mix:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Dukari

And this schiavona:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=68

...purely to confuse the topic

[Jim McDougall]

Actually no confusion at all!
These are interesting examples of the spurious use of these kinds of markings on various blades, the one a 'souvenier' item from India. The other with schiavona hilt is of triple fuller sabre form usually it seems from Solingen well into and through 19th century. The quad groupings of crosses and usually another device (comet and stars, or in this case moon) are often seen on Algerian 'nimcha' blades (see Briggs, 1965).

[blue lander]

Are there other examples of Indo-Persian tulwar blades with non-spurious moons on them? I was under the impression that most European blades circulating in that area were British. I just have a hard time understanding what this souvenir maker was trying to accomplish when he went out of his way to add these marks to the blade.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by blue lander

Are there other examples of Indo-Persian tulwar blades with non-spurious moons on them? I was under the impression that most European blades circulating in that area were British. I just have a hard time understanding what this souvenir maker was trying to accomplish when he went out of his way to add these marks to the blade.

It is hard to imagine what the creator of this blade was trying to add with these clearly 'artistic' interpretations of the astral symbols often seen on European blades (usually Solingen) as noted in the discussion linked (5/16).
It is hard to determine just which exact region this sword might be from as it is something contrived using a regular Indo-Persian tulwar hilt (widely dispersed through mostly northern regions) but others in degree.

While there were many British blades, typically sabre blades especially M1796 occurring in tulwars, most of the 'firangi' blades southward were German and of backsword type with many broadswords on patas.

It does not seem crescent moons were typically used in the Indian repertoire and these appear to just simulate European marks as they were often seen as imbuements of power etc. or such interpretations.

Just my thoughts from what I have noted, but others more experienced in these weapons might add more.

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you for posting these Ulfberth!!! and that sword is a beauty!

As far as I have known, the crescent 'man in the moon' stamps were originally used by the 'espaderos del Rey' (sword makers for the king) in Spain, and this particular mark was widely copied in Solingen and Munich.
It was not specific to a certain maker, but became more of an accompanying symbol of imbued quality suggesting the Toledo associations.

The cross and orb and other markings such as the 'Passau Wolf' also became widely used as many other markings in these capacities.

It seems that Stantler was more known to have used these moons as he used Spanish names and the stamps recorded in Palomares on many blades. Diefstetter as noted used flails as a mark, but it would not be surprising in my opinion to see these moons on his blades.

Hi Jim,

This is also what I think and indeed the most probable cause if I may use this term, as Jasper has also referred to this Spanish/German origins in post #26.
It seems the crescent moon became more of a quality mark as a personal maker signature.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Excellent thread ...To which I add in agreement that these moons were probably not owned by individual sword makers moreover they were associated with different factories rather as a quality marker...something like the Passau wolf marks...and Ferrera marks. In my view I view Arabian swords with moons placed by local sword smiths here at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...swords&f=false

I am not certain when all the sword design/decoration influence occurred between Europe and Africa though some sources indicate as early as 14th C...It seems to me that moons were often accompanied by suns in the European examples but the Moons were either favoured by African and Islamic subjects because of the new moon thus must have carried a TALISMANIC IDEA..

[ulfberth]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thank you for your comment, Indeed a quality mark amongst the ones you mentioned.
As were the eyelashes marks also early European, which we also see on African and Indian swords.
It would be interesting to see how far we can go and find even earlier or other crescent moons.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thank you for your comment, Indeed a quality mark amongst the ones you mentioned.
As were the eyelashes marks also early European, which we also see on African and Indian swords.
It would be interesting to see how far we can go and find even earlier or other crescent moons.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

I found these ~ Some Solingen? In the Moroccan Nimcha the moon accompanied by the sun common on European blades... The moon shaped Indian Axe inspires comparison in use of a moon shaped weapon as opposed to a blade with moons...Also shown is the triple dot on what are sometimes called eyelash or hogs back combinations which may be rudimentary moons?

See also the Pata or Dandpata at https://www.pinterest.com/pin/432064157979557937/ with two moons.

[ulfberth]

Hi Ibrahimm,

that Nimcha has what we call a talisman blade in it, it sure European, looks like 18th C and could be French , Northern Spain or even ... Portuguese

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Excellent thread ...To which I add in agreement that these moons were probably not owned by individual sword makers moreover they were associated with different factories rather as a quality marker...something like the Passau wolf marks...and Ferrera marks. In my view I view Arabian swords with moons placed by local sword smiths here at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...swords&f=false

I am not certain when all the sword design/decoration influence occurred between Europe and Africa though some sources indicate as early as 14th C...It seems to me that moons were often accompanied by suns in the European examples but the Moons were either favoured by African and Islamic subjects because of the new moon thus must have carried a TALISMANIC IDEA..

Ibrahiim, it truly is hard to determine reasonably accurate dates of adoption of the various symbols and devices from European blades into the talismanic motifs on native blades. We can compellingly presume these are indeed talismanic as in the case of the 'dukari' (paired moons) which are the subject of our study, these were placed in addorsed position while most European blades had single examples of the moon.
Native blacksmiths in the Sahara with the Tuareg, as well as Hausas, were just as in many cultures, viewed with dark suspicions, and their blades seen as possessing 'magic'.

While the sun and stars are included in the astral theme of blades in many cultures and these kinds of motif, it is the moon which seems to carry the most impetus talismanially and with folk religions and superstitions.

I think you are quite right in looking toward the 'hogs back' or sickle marks of European origin as perhaps a lunar symbol. The arc and the dentations indicating reflective rays, whether of that intention in European parlance or not, certainly might be perceived in native cultures as a reflective moon.
While many aspects of such symbolism in native folk religions have to do with phases of the moon (as with Lohr panels on Sudanese blades), the commonly placed use of the duality theme is also often present.

With cosmological symbolism often key in folk religions and superstitions in many native cultures, it is not surprising that they saw the talismanic and magically themed blades of Europe as having imbued powers. Even with blades with alternate themes, inscriptions or marks, they would likely have seen these in the same sense, but presuming these other motif as simply the same scope but similar properties.

Absolutely Ulfberth!!
The more examples we can find of these moons in different contexts the more we can build a reasonable perspective on their diffusion both geographically and perhaps even chronologically.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim, it truly is hard to determine reasonably accurate dates of adoption of the various symbols and devices from European blades into the talismanic motifs on native blades. We can compellingly presume these are indeed talismanic as in the case of the 'dukari' (paired moons) which are the subject of our study, these were placed in addorsed position while most European blades had single examples of the moon.
Native blacksmiths in the Sahara with the Tuareg, as well as Hausas, were just as in many cultures, viewed with dark suspicions, and their blades seen as possessing 'magic'.

While the sun and stars are included in the astral theme of blades in many cultures and these kinds of motif, it is the moon which seems to carry the most impetus talismanially and with folk religions and superstitions.

I think you are quite right in looking toward the 'hogs back' or sickle marks of European origin as perhaps a lunar symbol. The arc and the dentations indicating reflective rays, whether of that intention in European parlance or not, certainly might be perceived in native cultures as a reflective moon.
While many aspects of such symbolism in native folk religions have to do with phases of the moon (as with Lohr panels on Sudanese blades), the commonly placed use of the duality theme is also often present.

With cosmological symbolism often key in folk religions and superstitions in many native cultures, it is not surprising that they saw the talismanic and magically themed blades of Europe as having imbued powers. Even with blades with alternate themes, inscriptions or marks, they would likely have seen these in the same sense, but presuming these other motif as simply the same scope but similar properties.

Absolutely Ulfberth!!
The more examples we can find of these moons in different contexts the more we can build a reasonable perspective on their diffusion both geographically and perhaps even chronologically.

Hello Jim, and I welcome your post!

I occasionally see references pushing the style or fashion for moons back to the 14th Century coinciding with the thought that European blades were being exported in about the same time frame.. Much of that is somewhat hearsay thus I search for this distinction... It is interesting that in searching for Talismanic work the most compelling evidence today...and still used..comes from Morocco. It is not only the talimanic designs and spells but the person who does the practical work;...The smiths who convey from generation to generation the secret powers of such craft; It is something of a double act with the metal smith, silversmith or metalworker doing the actual work whilst the actual spells are done by the wandering magician folk..written on paper...then you go off to a silver man and it gets done... There is a powerful history of Jewish work there and the wandering and very weird looking magician people who still look like they just stepped out of an ancient history manual on spells and magic...Sort of like apothecaries ..and if they had a pointed hat you would think of Merlin or some sort of Witch or magic man... They are highly respected and very much part of the scenery as you find in all the old souks...quite amazing!
Ibrahiim.

[Jim McDougall]

Very well noted Ibrahiim!! and these talismanic properties in these markings used on sword blades, and they have been used in varied form well into antiquity. It seems such marks are found even on blades into Roman times (I think reference in Oakeshott, 1962) among others in similar simple style.
In central Europe into early times tribal people often used astral symbols, such as Szekelers who used sun and moon as symbols in their material culture.

It also seems that I have seen suggestions of the double addorsed crescent axes as seen often in India and others having symbolic lunar significance.

Magic in various cultures may often be one of the key elements, from the shaman into prehistory into more recent times to the medicine men, witch doctors and associated capacities .Elements of folk religion, pagan and animist traditions to the established mystic and magic properties often held in many of the major religions are widely known. However their esoterica may lead to misunderstanding many aspects of the symbolism.