Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

amazing beautiful sword !!!( sword post 36 )

what is the connection between Diefstetter and the crescent moon?

Melchior diefstetter had as mark Crossed flails and shield lozengy (checkered shield).

fe post#5

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=diefstetter

Melchior Diefstetter died in 1556.

Thanks Jasper !
And yes that is correct, Diefstetter is known to have the crossed flails as a blade mark.
The crescent moon referring as a mark of Diefstetter is how the sword ( post 35 ) was described by Hermann Historica.
I was as surprised as you are, perhaps another later member of the family ?

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[cornelistromp]

there is also a later member and swordmaker of the diefstetter family from Munich known;

Ulrich Diefstetter 1536-1589, who had a checkered shield and a jester head as a mark but no crescent moon.

best,
Jasper

[ulfberth]

I don't know were Hermann Historica got the information about crescent moons used as a mark by Ulrich Diefstetter,
perhaps they had a reference we don't know about yet.
I thought both swords were nice examples that fit in this post "Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades "
It would be interesting to find out if the crescent moons were used by this family of sword makers or not.
We do know that they were used by various makers, the earliest I found so far are these two similar hand and a half swords.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for posting these Ulfberth!!! and that sword is a beauty!

As far as I have known, the crescent 'man in the moon' stamps were originally used by the 'espaderos del Rey' (sword makers for the king) in Spain, and this particular mark was widely copied in Solingen and Munich.
It was not specific to a certain maker, but became more of an accompanying symbol of imbued quality suggesting the Toledo associations.

The cross and orb and other markings such as the 'Passau Wolf' also became widely used as many other markings in these capacities.

It seems that Stantler was more known to have used these moons as he used Spanish names and the stamps recorded in Palomares on many blades. Diefstetter as noted used flails as a mark, but it would not be surprising in my opinion to see these moons on his blades.

[blue lander]

I'd like to throw this odd tulwar into the mix:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Dukari

And this schiavona:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=68

...purely to confuse the topic

[Jim McDougall]

Actually no confusion at all!
These are interesting examples of the spurious use of these kinds of markings on various blades, the one a 'souvenier' item from India. The other with schiavona hilt is of triple fuller sabre form usually it seems from Solingen well into and through 19th century. The quad groupings of crosses and usually another device (comet and stars, or in this case moon) are often seen on Algerian 'nimcha' blades (see Briggs, 1965).

[blue lander]

Are there other examples of Indo-Persian tulwar blades with non-spurious moons on them? I was under the impression that most European blades circulating in that area were British. I just have a hard time understanding what this souvenir maker was trying to accomplish when he went out of his way to add these marks to the blade.

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you for posting these Ulfberth!!! and that sword is a beauty!

As far as I have known, the crescent 'man in the moon' stamps were originally used by the 'espaderos del Rey' (sword makers for the king) in Spain, and this particular mark was widely copied in Solingen and Munich.
It was not specific to a certain maker, but became more of an accompanying symbol of imbued quality suggesting the Toledo associations.

The cross and orb and other markings such as the 'Passau Wolf' also became widely used as many other markings in these capacities.

It seems that Stantler was more known to have used these moons as he used Spanish names and the stamps recorded in Palomares on many blades. Diefstetter as noted used flails as a mark, but it would not be surprising in my opinion to see these moons on his blades.

Hi Jim,

This is also what I think and indeed the most probable cause if I may use this term, as Jasper has also referred to this Spanish/German origins in post #26.
It seems the crescent moon became more of a quality mark as a personal maker signature.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Excellent thread ...To which I add in agreement that these moons were probably not owned by individual sword makers moreover they were associated with different factories rather as a quality marker...something like the Passau wolf marks...and Ferrera marks. In my view I view Arabian swords with moons placed by local sword smiths here at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...swords&f=false

I am not certain when all the sword design/decoration influence occurred between Europe and Africa though some sources indicate as early as 14th C...It seems to me that moons were often accompanied by suns in the European examples but the Moons were either favoured by African and Islamic subjects because of the new moon thus must have carried a TALISMANIC IDEA..

[ulfberth]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thank you for your comment, Indeed a quality mark amongst the ones you mentioned.
As were the eyelashes marks also early European, which we also see on African and Indian swords.
It would be interesting to see how far we can go and find even earlier or other crescent moons.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Excellent thread ...To which I add in agreement that these moons were probably not owned by individual sword makers moreover they were associated with different factories rather as a quality marker...something like the Passau wolf marks...and Ferrera marks. In my view I view Arabian swords with moons placed by local sword smiths here at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...swords&f=false

I am not certain when all the sword design/decoration influence occurred between Europe and Africa though some sources indicate as early as 14th C...It seems to me that moons were often accompanied by suns in the European examples but the Moons were either favoured by African and Islamic subjects because of the new moon thus must have carried a TALISMANIC IDEA..

Ibrahiim, it truly is hard to determine reasonably accurate dates of adoption of the various symbols and devices from European blades into the talismanic motifs on native blades. We can compellingly presume these are indeed talismanic as in the case of the 'dukari' (paired moons) which are the subject of our study, these were placed in addorsed position while most European blades had single examples of the moon.
Native blacksmiths in the Sahara with the Tuareg, as well as Hausas, were just as in many cultures, viewed with dark suspicions, and their blades seen as possessing 'magic'.

While the sun and stars are included in the astral theme of blades in many cultures and these kinds of motif, it is the moon which seems to carry the most impetus talismanially and with folk religions and superstitions.

I think you are quite right in looking toward the 'hogs back' or sickle marks of European origin as perhaps a lunar symbol. The arc and the dentations indicating reflective rays, whether of that intention in European parlance or not, certainly might be perceived in native cultures as a reflective moon.
While many aspects of such symbolism in native folk religions have to do with phases of the moon (as with Lohr panels on Sudanese blades), the commonly placed use of the duality theme is also often present.

With cosmological symbolism often key in folk religions and superstitions in many native cultures, it is not surprising that they saw the talismanic and magically themed blades of Europe as having imbued powers. Even with blades with alternate themes, inscriptions or marks, they would likely have seen these in the same sense, but presuming these other motif as simply the same scope but similar properties.

Absolutely Ulfberth!!
The more examples we can find of these moons in different contexts the more we can build a reasonable perspective on their diffusion both geographically and perhaps even chronologically.