Latest Mystery Sword

Mark · 9th February 2006, 04:31 PM

Can you see any detail on the flags/banners decorating the blade? That might offer some clues.

sabertasche · 9th February 2006, 05:55 PM

I'll take some scans of the blade tonight and post them for all.

Cheers,

Greg

Andrew · 9th February 2006, 06:46 PM

French "Mameluk" saber?

Where's Jim on this one?

Rivkin · 9th February 2006, 08:03 PM

I am no expert, but it looks to me that the general style of a saber is that of ottoman balkans, early XIX century(?), painted stones (or the real ones) characteristic of early iranian to late ottoman production, however usually relate to the region of Trabzon, however could appear on non-Trabzon swords as well.

wolviex · 9th February 2006, 08:52 PM

I think there is no need to search the roots for this sabre in Ottoman Empire, while there are silver marks and stamps, which (as sabertasche wrote) indicates Vienna. If so, I suppose this marks are: oval field divided on three with number (might be 13) and surrounded by numbers of date, ie. 1839, 1834 etc, with letter "A" which was assigned to Vienna. This one is one of the most common, but maybe there is different one on your sabre. Unfortunately I couldn't find "M&K" signature - is it stamped on silver?
Above all of this, we can find many sabres like this in Austro-Hungarian Empire during 19th c., in many shapes. Just take a look at some Croatian catalogues if you can, where you'll find many varieties of such weapons, though more often their hilts are made with mother of pearl-like material. They were also used in Poland, but then sabres were made in style and shapes of karabelas, because here was a good market for such patriotic weapons, used by polish noblemen to their national attires. We've got some of them in my museum too, and one of them is with such blue stones on the hilt as well.
As to the blade, it's beautiful but common blade made at the beginning of the 19th century, but could be a little later after 1810 aswell. Balde like this are usually associate with France but it seems to me they were produced in other countries as well (Russia?, Germany?). Sorry Mark, but knowing such decoration, it would be great luck if there were any signs on the flags, so I suppose this won't tell us anything

Regards!

Rivkin · 10th February 2006, 12:02 AM

Sorry, my fault for just looking at the pictures without reading the text

.

ariel · 10th February 2006, 12:35 AM

The use of blue stones for decoration was very popular on Hungarian and Transylvanian swords. I agree with Michal(difficult to argue with him anyway: he always has the right answer!) that the Vienna markings nail the origin down to Austro-Hungarian Empire. I just think it is more Hungarian than Austrian.

Jim McDougall · 10th February 2006, 12:58 AM

I agree completely with Michal, this is a 19th c. example Ausro-Hungarian officers sabre, and as Ariel has noted, most likely Hungarian. It seems to me that many of the Hungarian example sabres carry these very light, often asymmetrically mounted blades, as well in contrast with the heavy, baroque hilts and mounts. I recall always thinking these were rather 'off' when I saw them and of thinking they were badly matched in the way the blades were mounted. I have actually never quite understood why these blades were so thin and light, however they are clearly intended as dress sabres rather than fighting swords.It also seems to me that the Austrian sabres were inclined to have heavier blades that were consistant with the hilts in which they were mounted, though that may be a broad assumption (no pun intended

As noted, the Ottoman influence on sword styles was well known in Eastern Europe for hundreds of years.During the Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt the Mameluke style hilt became popular as a military officers sabre form for not only the French and British, but other European armies as well as later in the U.S. The form remains that of the traditional sabre of the U.S. Marines.

Best regards,
jim

9th February 2006, 04:31 PM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Can you see any detail on the flags/banners decorating the blade? That might offer some clues.

9th February 2006, 05:55 PM	#2
sabertasche Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 149	I'll take some scans of the blade tonight and post them for all. Cheers, Greg

9th February 2006, 06:46 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	French "Mameluk" saber? Where's Jim on this one?

9th February 2006, 08:03 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I am no expert, but it looks to me that the general style of a saber is that of ottoman balkans, early XIX century(?), painted stones (or the real ones) characteristic of early iranian to late ottoman production, however usually relate to the region of Trabzon, however could appear on non-Trabzon swords as well.

9th February 2006, 08:52 PM	#5
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I think there is no need to search the roots for this sabre in Ottoman Empire, while there are silver marks and stamps, which (as sabertasche wrote) indicates Vienna. If so, I suppose this marks are: oval field divided on three with number (might be 13) and surrounded by numbers of date, ie. 1839, 1834 etc, with letter "A" which was assigned to Vienna. This one is one of the most common, but maybe there is different one on your sabre. Unfortunately I couldn't find "M&K" signature - is it stamped on silver? Above all of this, we can find many sabres like this in Austro-Hungarian Empire during 19th c., in many shapes. Just take a look at some Croatian catalogues if you can, where you'll find many varieties of such weapons, though more often their hilts are made with mother of pearl-like material. They were also used in Poland, but then sabres were made in style and shapes of karabelas, because here was a good market for such patriotic weapons, used by polish noblemen to their national attires. We've got some of them in my museum too, and one of them is with such blue stones on the hilt as well. As to the blade, it's beautiful but common blade made at the beginning of the 19th century, but could be a little later after 1810 aswell. Balde like this are usually associate with France but it seems to me they were produced in other countries as well (Russia?, Germany?). Sorry Mark, but knowing such decoration, it would be great luck if there were any signs on the flags, so I suppose this won't tell us anything Regards!

10th February 2006, 12:02 AM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Sorry, my fault for just looking at the pictures without reading the text .

10th February 2006, 12:35 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The use of blue stones for decoration was very popular on Hungarian and Transylvanian swords. I agree with Michal(difficult to argue with him anyway: he always has the right answer!) that the Vienna markings nail the origin down to Austro-Hungarian Empire. I just think it is more Hungarian than Austrian.

10th February 2006, 12:58 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I agree completely with Michal, this is a 19th c. example Ausro-Hungarian officers sabre, and as Ariel has noted, most likely Hungarian. It seems to me that many of the Hungarian example sabres carry these very light, often asymmetrically mounted blades, as well in contrast with the heavy, baroque hilts and mounts. I recall always thinking these were rather 'off' when I saw them and of thinking they were badly matched in the way the blades were mounted. I have actually never quite understood why these blades were so thin and light, however they are clearly intended as dress sabres rather than fighting swords.It also seems to me that the Austrian sabres were inclined to have heavier blades that were consistant with the hilts in which they were mounted, though that may be a broad assumption (no pun intended As noted, the Ottoman influence on sword styles was well known in Eastern Europe for hundreds of years.During the Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt the Mameluke style hilt became popular as a military officers sabre form for not only the French and British, but other European armies as well as later in the U.S. The form remains that of the traditional sabre of the U.S. Marines. Best regards, jim