Minangkabau(?) keris

Sajen · 28th July 2016, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Yes, a Minang Keris. Greneng and whole blade base is typically Minang.

Hilt doesn't look so bad. The light colour is a good sign, because the newer ones are almost always chemically treated to enhance the colours.

Would let it as it is, except the blade rust. It is a honest, good specimen of its kind. Nice to have such more elaborated crosspiece of sheath.

Buntut (the end peace of sheath stem) being made from different material (I mean also metal of different colours as in this case) is not unusual with this type, actually it is quite often seen, also Pendokok corresponding with Buntut.

It is a pure speculation, yet I suppose the sleeve that once covered the back of Gonjo was the same colour as Pendokok. Never have seen an old silver one.

Agree in all points with Gustav, I really don't think that buntut and pendokok are recent additions and frankly wouldn't be very surprised when it will be gold of unknown quality, I would let test it and again frankly said I would think about to let restore the pendokok when it is indeed gold. It is maybe very thin (because expensive) gold and I think that this keris was once a dress piece. I am as well every time dubiously when I see elephant molar hilts but have to agree with Gustav by the same reasons.
And yes, please care the blade!

Regards,
Detlef

Jean · 29th July 2016, 09:12 AM

I agree with the opinions from the other members, but would just like to add that from the pics the pendokok and buntut look to be made from gilt silver, and the hilt has a vague cockatoo shape indeed (attributed to Jambi).
Regards

Sajen · 29th July 2016, 07:17 PM

Agree with Kai and Jean, this form of hilt is attributed to Jambi.

ariel · 30th July 2016, 09:00 PM

Here are the pics you have requested. I looked carefully at the selut and buntut: you might have been correct, it may indeed be gilt silver. Need to take them to a jeweler. There are two holes in the gonjo, one at each end and there might have been another, currently plugged in, in the middle. The big hole in the gonjo is lined up with some non-ferrous metal.

Any additional insights?

Sajen · 30th July 2016, 10:00 PM

Hello Ariel,

thank you for the additional pictures. I think the gonjo was once covered with a sheet from the same material as the pendokok and buntut and reveted at the holes and also at the middle hole for the tang (pesi) and bead over at the crenation visible at the sides of the cross piece (gonjo).
Since you have now dismantled all parts I would advise that you bath the blade and gonjo in lemon acid or pineapple juice (without sugar) until all rust is gone. You can find here many threads how to handle this.
And yes, let test the pendokok material, it will be either gild silver or gold. I would let restore this pendokok, you will have after this a very nice keris, it's worth the effort. Maybe a gold smith can give the gonjo also a new cover!?

A very nice and good keris!

Regards,
Detlef

ariel · 30th July 2016, 11:20 PM

Thanks Detlef!

Will 3% vinegar do?

Jean · 31st July 2016, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks Detlef!

Will 3% vinegar do?

Like Alan I am using household vinegar for cleaning my blades but I try to find the most concentrated stuff (10% acetic acid, 8% minimum) for speeding-up the process, and I am covering the container in order to avoid evaporation and dilution of the vinegar. After initial mechanical cleaning of the rust, it usually does not take more than 36 hours for fully cleaning a blade, with regular scrubbings with an iron pad or metal brush impregnated with a cleaning paste. See the result on an old Panjang blade but keep in mind that the corrosion pits will remain and in some cases the outcome may be disappointing.
Regards

Sajen · 31st July 2016, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks Detlef!

Will 3% vinegar do?

Hello Ariel,

think that Alan has described it very well. I use byself citric acid which you can buy in the supermarket. Very good note from Alan to remove the other metal material.

A. G. Maisey · 30th July 2016, 11:45 PM

A word on cleaning.

Before soaking the blade it is a very good practice to remove any non-ferrous metals from the blade, the reason being that copper and brass can leave a deposit on the blade, similar to electro-plating, and this can be a bit difficult to remove. With this blade, get rid of the brass or whatever in the gonjo hole, and the pin that is stuck in the fixing hole.

In respect of the fluid used to clean.
For many years I used pineapple juice, but it was juice from fresh pineapples, not recomposed juice made from pineapple concentrate. The juice made from pineapple concentrate will clean a blade, but it is not good. I have stopped using it. I never have liked lemon juice, it seems to be too harsh, and the juice from my lemons makes a blade very dark and too difficult to stain when the cleaning is complete. Lime juice seems to be OK, but limes are very, very expensive.

Citric acid is OK, but the last 20 or 30 blades that I've cleaned I have done with ordinary household white vinegar. This works well and does not damage the blade.

This blade that we are considering at the moment will need daily mechanical cleaning during the cleaning, a small, sharp pointed implement is best used for this. I use a scraper made from a small triangular file that has a radius ground onto it.

It is essential to carry out a proper process.

Each day the blade must be removed from the vinegar and brushed with a stiff brush, rinsed under running water, dried, mechanically cleaned, rinsed, dried, returned to the vinegar.

When the blade has had all the corrosion removed it is rinsed thoroughly, then it is painted with a slurry of bicarbonate of soda which is worked into it well.

Allow the blade to stand for a while, say 15 minutes, rinse thoroughly, wash with dishwash detergent under running water, rinse thoroughly, dry with a clean lint free cloth, dry again with a hair dryer, spray with WD40 and allow to stand overnight. Then paint it with oil (lots of discussion on oils) and wrap in plastic film.

If you want the blade in the white when finished cleaning, steel wool (OO) and powder sink cleaner is effective. Wash thoroughly under running water and with dishwash liquid when the blade is clean of the dark stain. You do this before the drying and oiling.

ariel · 31st July 2016, 01:33 AM

Thanks Alan!
I knew this would be a long process.... Nothing is simple with you, kris lovers:-)

And special thanks for your vinegar comments: I have no pineapple or lime tree in my backyard in Michigan, and always wondered why you, guys, were always using exotic juices when a a nice clean organic acid was freely available in a local supermarket for pennies per gallon.
BTW: Do you have any comments about this kris?

asomotif · 2nd August 2016, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I would let restore this pendokok, you will have after this a very nice keris, it's worth the effort. Maybe a gold smith can give the gonjo also a new cover!?

A very nice and good keris!

Regards,
Detlef

I agree 100% with Detlef on the pendokok. It looks fine in combination with the buntut and can easily be restored in the correct shape.

Nice keris btw. Hugging and kissing seems overdone, But calling it George... why not

Best regards,
Willem

A. G. Maisey · 2nd August 2016, 10:55 PM

Nothing wrong with that cleaning result Jean, it is as Detlef has said, it was deeply corroded in the first place.

Actually, the material in that blade does not appear to be what I had in mind when I used the word "spongey".

Some Javanese blades have pamor sanak that has been made from what appears to be very low quality wrought iron that has not been cleaned properly during the forging process, when you try to clean it with anything, even my old-time favourite, pineapple juice, it develops holes and open grain that was simply not visible before the cleaning process.

Your blade shown here has a heap of pits, caused by corrosion, it does not display the effect I have tried to describe.

Incidentally, I think you will find that the heavier concentration of pitting in the front part of the blade has occurred where it has been heat treated, behind the point at which the heat treat stopped the pitting is less concentrated.

Note, the "cleaning during the forging process" that I mention above has nothing to do with vinegar, it is the repeated folding and welding of material in order to remove impurities. The general rule is that you fold and weld until "stars" do not fly from the material at weld heat when struck by the hammer.

30th July 2016, 09:00 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here are the pics you have requested. I looked carefully at the selut and buntut: you might have been correct, it may indeed be gilt silver. Need to take them to a jeweler. There are two holes in the gonjo, one at each end and there might have been another, currently plugged in, in the middle. The big hole in the gonjo is lined up with some non-ferrous metal. Any additional insights? Attached Images

29th July 2016, 09:12 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I agree with the opinions from the other members, but would just like to add that from the pics the pendokok and buntut look to be made from gilt silver, and the hilt has a vague cockatoo shape indeed (attributed to Jambi). Regards

29th July 2016, 07:17 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,210	Agree with Kai and Jean, this form of hilt is attributed to Jambi.

30th July 2016, 10:00 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,210	Hello Ariel, thank you for the additional pictures. I think the gonjo was once covered with a sheet from the same material as the pendokok and buntut and reveted at the holes and also at the middle hole for the tang (pesi) and bead over at the crenation visible at the sides of the cross piece (gonjo). Since you have now dismantled all parts I would advise that you bath the blade and gonjo in lemon acid or pineapple juice (without sugar) until all rust is gone. You can find here many threads how to handle this. And yes, let test the pendokok material, it will be either gild silver or gold. I would let restore this pendokok, you will have after this a very nice keris, it's worth the effort. Maybe a gold smith can give the gonjo also a new cover!? A very nice and good keris! Regards, Detlef

30th July 2016, 11:20 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks Detlef! Will 3% vinegar do?

30th July 2016, 11:45 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	A word on cleaning. Before soaking the blade it is a very good practice to remove any non-ferrous metals from the blade, the reason being that copper and brass can leave a deposit on the blade, similar to electro-plating, and this can be a bit difficult to remove. With this blade, get rid of the brass or whatever in the gonjo hole, and the pin that is stuck in the fixing hole. In respect of the fluid used to clean. For many years I used pineapple juice, but it was juice from fresh pineapples, not recomposed juice made from pineapple concentrate. The juice made from pineapple concentrate will clean a blade, but it is not good. I have stopped using it. I never have liked lemon juice, it seems to be too harsh, and the juice from my lemons makes a blade very dark and too difficult to stain when the cleaning is complete. Lime juice seems to be OK, but limes are very, very expensive. Citric acid is OK, but the last 20 or 30 blades that I've cleaned I have done with ordinary household white vinegar. This works well and does not damage the blade. This blade that we are considering at the moment will need daily mechanical cleaning during the cleaning, a small, sharp pointed implement is best used for this. I use a scraper made from a small triangular file that has a radius ground onto it. It is essential to carry out a proper process. Each day the blade must be removed from the vinegar and brushed with a stiff brush, rinsed under running water, dried, mechanically cleaned, rinsed, dried, returned to the vinegar. When the blade has had all the corrosion removed it is rinsed thoroughly, then it is painted with a slurry of bicarbonate of soda which is worked into it well. Allow the blade to stand for a while, say 15 minutes, rinse thoroughly, wash with dishwash detergent under running water, rinse thoroughly, dry with a clean lint free cloth, dry again with a hair dryer, spray with WD40 and allow to stand overnight. Then paint it with oil (lots of discussion on oils) and wrap in plastic film. If you want the blade in the white when finished cleaning, steel wool (OO) and powder sink cleaner is effective. Wash thoroughly under running water and with dishwash liquid when the blade is clean of the dark stain. You do this before the drying and oiling.

31st July 2016, 01:33 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks Alan! I knew this would be a long process.... Nothing is simple with you, kris lovers:-) And special thanks for your vinegar comments: I have no pineapple or lime tree in my backyard in Michigan, and always wondered why you, guys, were always using exotic juices when a a nice clean organic acid was freely available in a local supermarket for pennies per gallon. BTW: Do you have any comments about this kris?

2nd August 2016, 10:55 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Nothing wrong with that cleaning result Jean, it is as Detlef has said, it was deeply corroded in the first place. Actually, the material in that blade does not appear to be what I had in mind when I used the word "spongey". Some Javanese blades have pamor sanak that has been made from what appears to be very low quality wrought iron that has not been cleaned properly during the forging process, when you try to clean it with anything, even my old-time favourite, pineapple juice, it develops holes and open grain that was simply not visible before the cleaning process. Your blade shown here has a heap of pits, caused by corrosion, it does not display the effect I have tried to describe. Incidentally, I think you will find that the heavier concentration of pitting in the front part of the blade has occurred where it has been heat treated, behind the point at which the heat treat stopped the pitting is less concentrated. Note, the "cleaning during the forging process" that I mention above has nothing to do with vinegar, it is the repeated folding and welding of material in order to remove impurities. The general rule is that you fold and weld until "stars" do not fly from the material at weld heat when struck by the hammer.