Indian pseudoshashka

ariel · 24th July 2016, 05:55 PM

Ibrahiim,
I think you are veering too much off into the fantasy land.
We have only recently realized that there is an Indian sword pattern we had no idea about. We still have divergent opinions whether it is North or South Indian. We have no idea of its name. Even our dedicated "indologists" are mum about any even circumstantial descriptions in the literature. In short, we have several very real examples, but no information.

Let' s take a deep breath and wait for some.

It will come, sooner or later. This forum has long memory: Kai posted the very first example in 2005, and it took us 11 years of silence to recognize that it was not a fluke.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th July 2016, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Ibrahiim,
I think you are veering too much off into the fantasy land.
We have only recently realized that there is an Indian sword pattern we had no idea about. We still have divergent opinions whether it is North or South Indian. We have no idea of its name. Even our dedicated "indologists" are mum about any even circumstantial descriptions in the literature. In short, we have several very real examples, but no information.

Let' s take a deep breath and wait for some.

It will come, sooner or later. This forum has long memory: Kai posted the very first example in 2005, and it took us 11 years of silence to recognize that it was not a fluke.

On the contrary Ariel; I think a lot of the content places Forum on the same page... We have realized the Indian style and the Afghanistan type... We have joined the form to Chinese influence and we know the Turkic Mongolian link...

I see no fantasy land here... and if this form has been swimming about for 11 years do we not owe it a better look?... I think what you mean is that the scent went cold 11 years ago...but you have to admit it aint cold now!!

Granted we have no name yet... and the puzzle looks drawn out potentially across several countries which is understandable considering the development and influence over time...

As to Northern or Southern Indian the pointer indicates Northern with accents of Afghanistan loud and clear... Indian Court Swords may have sprung up in other Indian regions independently ...The Cavalry clues seem clearly of Northern regions...influenced probably from the Ottomans..

Putting on the hand brake is not the way we work...From a cautious start up there are now several more examples to consider.. It develops reasonably. Clues lead us on... Get digging !!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th July 2016, 11:29 PM

By pure fluke I note that at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post203680 there is a more modern style of Afghan sword with a very similar gooseneck finial at the top of the knuckleguard . This is very similar to the Afghan Pulouir which in turn is similar to the sword being discussed here. This leads me to suggest that the style of weapon we are looking at in this thread may, in fact, originate in that region. Afghanistan.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th July 2016, 12:05 AM

I found another sword hilt to comply with the design being looked at. In this example it appears I think, as Moghul form but with a broken knuckle guard and it is a Birdhead with knuckle guard and Tunkou...

Illustrated as a museum exhibit it reads; Quote"Indian sword hilt from the collection of Arms and Armour in the Prince of Wales Museum, now known as Chattrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sanghrahalaya, Mumbai India.'' Unquote.

See https://www.pinterest.com/pin/397372367093427700/

ariel · 25th July 2016, 12:35 AM

Wow!!!

Up until now, all examples were very modest, kinda " village-like".
This one is high class.
Man, this pattern was not only for "unwashed masses":-)
Fascinating.
Many thanks.

Jim McDougall · 25th July 2016, 03:46 AM

I will second that WOW!!
It sure looks like bringing this subject sword type up again has really panned out!
Thank you guys!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th July 2016, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I will second that WOW!!
It sure looks like bringing this subject sword type up again has really panned out!
Thank you guys!

Thank You Jim... and also thanks to Ariel. I thought to compose a quick baseline of where I think we are in regard to this weapon; Looking across the broad Bukharan connection and bearing in mind tribal flow and the Chinese linkages it seems to me that the transmission and influence is from the Bukharan sphere touching Afghanistan, India and Turkey for a variety of reasons but that the sword is in fact not of any of the nations where it has appeared.

The linkage with Mughal swords for the Turkish market is through the Ottoman preference in Bling form Mughal hilts from such centres affected by Jahangir and other Indian rulers thus a purely fashionable weapon to wear at Court...

It can be seen that no two swords shown as examples in basic form have the same construction in the hilt with dramatic differences in how the knuckle guard is fixed, leaving me to believe that these were never a commonly turned out, professional sword workshop item....more an accidental hybrid. This and the fact that actually there are only a few available to compare suggests the weapon was more a chance encounter with a forge master than a common user item.

Whilst not saying out loud that the subject may be an innocent red herring or chasing wild geese, I find topics like these fascinating as far as they go...and once in a while "tilting at windmills" is no bad thing but I think for now the topic may be somewhat exhausted and therefor as far as this, as yet, nameless sword is concerned, we are on hold, though always ready to take up the pen should fresh evidence surface.

Here is a very interesting note that I also applied to another Indian thread ..This links the influence of Mughal Court swords lavishly done in Jade and Nephrite with added precious stones in pure Jahangir "Bling" form to Ottoman fashion;
Please see https://books.google.com.om/books?i...20hilts&f=false

24th July 2016, 11:29 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	By pure fluke I note that at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post203680 there is a more modern style of Afghan sword with a very similar gooseneck finial at the top of the knuckleguard . This is very similar to the Afghan Pulouir which in turn is similar to the sword being discussed here. This leads me to suggest that the style of weapon we are looking at in this thread may, in fact, originate in that region. Afghanistan. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th July 2016 at 12:03 AM.

25th July 2016, 12:05 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I found another sword hilt to comply with the design being looked at. In this example it appears I think, as Moghul form but with a broken knuckle guard and it is a Birdhead with knuckle guard and Tunkou... Illustrated as a museum exhibit it reads; Quote"Indian sword hilt from the collection of Arms and Armour in the Prince of Wales Museum, now known as Chattrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sanghrahalaya, Mumbai India.'' Unquote. See https://www.pinterest.com/pin/397372367093427700/ Attached Images

24th July 2016, 05:55 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ibrahiim, I think you are veering too much off into the fantasy land. We have only recently realized that there is an Indian sword pattern we had no idea about. We still have divergent opinions whether it is North or South Indian. We have no idea of its name. Even our dedicated "indologists" are mum about any even circumstantial descriptions in the literature. In short, we have several very real examples, but no information. Let' s take a deep breath and wait for some. It will come, sooner or later. This forum has long memory: Kai posted the very first example in 2005, and it took us 11 years of silence to recognize that it was not a fluke.

25th July 2016, 12:35 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Wow!!! Up until now, all examples were very modest, kinda " village-like". This one is high class. Man, this pattern was not only for "unwashed masses":-) Fascinating. Many thanks.

25th July 2016, 03:46 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	I will second that WOW!! It sure looks like bringing this subject sword type up again has really panned out! Thank you guys!