Indian pseudoshashka

kai · 24th July 2016, 04:29 AM

Hello Ibrahiim,

Quote:

It would seem logical in considering the bolstered throat arrangement that hurtling along at great speed on horseback some danger to the rider would be encountered on drawing or placing the sword back in the scabbard...to the hand and fingers. It may be why the design of the Tunkou appears on daggers...in Koftgari only (not the full Tunkou form)

since the Warrior would almost never draw a dagger on horseback ... but would certainly draw the sword pictured above.

Actually when imagining the draw; it is the thumb which assists the backblade out of the scabbard and of course the hand.

I don't see how this would assist the draw. (BTW, the thumb or rather the whole hand would be in a glove, at least in war time.)

Short of very unfavourable circumstances, one would expect the blade to be cleaned before it being returned into the scabbard...

Quote:

Secondly and I favour this;...the sword would fit much more tightly in the scabbard with this bolstering ...Thus the Tunkou as noted earlier has a dual purpose.

This seems to be more of an issue of workmanship (regarding the scabbard) to me. The vast majority of cavalry swords never had this feature (or functionally similar ones).

Regards,
Kai

Jim McDougall · 24th July 2016, 04:54 AM

Ibrahiim,
The horsehead (in India termed 'hayamukhi') is a popular motif, it seems most often found on dagger hilts from Jaipur and Rajasthan (Pant,1980, C, CCXXIII, CCI ). While Rajput favor would be presumed, this form was also known to be used by Mughals in richly carved jade, nephrite and crystal.
A full length sword with horsehead hilt and ganga yumuni (chevron) blade is also found dated 1750 from Jaipur.

It seems that the crossing of well known dagger form hilts and longer or full length sword blades is not unusual, in fact the lighter profile of this hilt with the knuckleguard brings to mind the Indian bichwa and chilanum.

The presence of the tunkou on this is notable, and would seem indeed to recall Central Asian and perhaps Ottoman influence. We have seen that the tunkou feature is well diffused through Turkic spheres, it is not as commonly seen in this style in Afghanistan and India, though similar koftgari applications are of course known.

The tunkou it seems according to scholars such as David Nicolle and Philip Tom, was indeed most likely intended for securing the sword in its scabbard. In the case of numbers of Chinese sword and others with the feature on the edge rather than back near the guard, it is presumed to have acted as an added ricasso for finger protection.

In most cases, swords without the tunkou seem to rely on the langet for placement and securing the sword in its scabbard.

This particular horsehead sword does seem to resemble those bring discussed with knuckleguard and recurved terminal as well as tunkou, and I would be inclined to agree with North India, Afghan regions.

kai · 24th July 2016, 10:44 AM

Hello Jim,

Thanks a lot for bearing with us

and your additional thoughts!

Quote:

The presence of the tunkou on this is notable, and would seem indeed to recall Central Asian and perhaps Ottoman influence. We have seen that the tunkou feature is well diffused through Turkic spheres, it is not as commonly seen in this style in Afghanistan and India, though similar koftgari applications are of course known.

BTW, is there any scholarly study linking the koftgari with the real tunkou-like elements?

Quote:

The tunkou it seems according to scholars such as David Nicolle and Philip Tom, was indeed most likely intended for securing the sword in its scabbard. In the case of numbers of Chinese sword and others with the feature on the edge rather than back near the guard, it is presumed to have acted as an added ricasso for finger protection.

I agree that this may be the reason for the original and later Chinese take on this (with the main element along the cutting edge). The ricasso of Indian blades will pretty much fulfil the same functions though.

I can also see that thickening the blade along the edge may help to make an easier fitting scabbard and, especially, help avoiding wear from heavy use.

However, I don't see any advantage for scabbard construction if pretty much only the back of the sword blade is thickened. For wootz blades as in the other thread this feature certainly is important to securely attach the hilt (short of functional alternatives found in Indian swords).

Quote:

In most cases, swords without the tunkou seem to rely on the langet for placement and securing the sword in its scabbard.

The langet is certainly another good approach. However, a global comparison shows the majority of swords without any dedicated "locking" mechanism and good workmanship seems to go a long way in crafting scabbards with excellent fit and secure carrying/wear as well as nice draw characteristics.

Regards,
Kai

ariel · 24th July 2016, 02:03 PM

Tunkou was created for a particular function explained above.
Subsequently, it became a purely decorative element, largely presenting as just a decorated triangular (mostly) part of the root of the blade.
The technique of decoration varied from place to place and koftgari was used for that purpose in the places where koftgari was a popular decorative technique in general. Some examples of tunkou used magnificent combinations of gold inlay, gems etc: see yataghans of Bayazet and Suleiman. Some had massive tri-dimensional plates: Greek for example. Cheap Turkish yataghan had just an outline of tunkou scraped into the body of the blade. North African Yataghans often carried miniature crenellated round all-metal plates. And you are right: the "Indian ricasso" was quite likely a distant descendant of the original nomadic wide and blunt root.

The "orientation " of tunkou also changed: originally , the long arm of it went along the edge, but already in the 14 century we can see it going along the back of the blade.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th July 2016, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim,
The horsehead (in India termed 'hayamukhi') is a popular motif, it seems most often found on dagger hilts from Jaipur and Rajasthan (Pant,1980, C, CCXXIII, CCI ). While Rajput favor would be presumed, this form was also known to be used by Mughals in richly carved jade, nephrite and crystal.
A full length sword with horsehead hilt and ganga yumuni (chevron) blade is also found dated 1750 from Jaipur.

It seems that the crossing of well known dagger form hilts and longer or full length sword blades is not unusual, in fact the lighter profile of this hilt with the knuckleguard brings to mind the Indian bichwa and chilanum.

The presence of the tunkou on this is notable, and would seem indeed to recall Central Asian and perhaps Ottoman influence. We have seen that the tunkou feature is well diffused through Turkic spheres, it is not as commonly seen in this style in Afghanistan and India, though similar koftgari applications are of course known.

The tunkou it seems according to scholars such as David Nicolle and Philip Tom, was indeed most likely intended for securing the sword in its scabbard. In the case of numbers of Chinese sword and others with the feature on the edge rather than back near the guard, it is presumed to have acted as an added ricasso for finger protection.

In most cases, swords without the tunkou seem to rely on the langet for placement and securing the sword in its scabbard.

This particular horsehead sword does seem to resemble those bring discussed with knuckleguard and recurved terminal as well as tunkou, and I would be inclined to agree with North India, Afghan regions.

Salaams Jim and thank you for the summary...It is interesting that the blades so far shown before the horses head were short or shorter than a cavalry weapon though no evidence exists that they were shortened blades...The Horses head or 'hayamukhi' which means horses face in Sanskrit...is certainly a long cavalry blade..and is possibly an inch or two shorter at the tip seemingly through wear.

What is remarkable about the hayamukhi is that all pointers seem to tick the box of "cavalry"... The Tunkou, the blade length, the knuckle guard, and of course the horses head itself...all characteristics of a cavalry weapon.

It may be early days yet to distinguish which area or areas this weapon was used in... and in what capacity. I suspect for India that the Mughal court style of shorter blade and ornate Neophrite / Crystal or other highly bling hilt form is possible especially as Jehangir was an avid hilt designer. The advent of a fighting weapon could easily be attributed to the warrior class or Rajput whilst continued reference to Afghanistan for these swords cannot be ignored.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ariel · 24th July 2016, 05:55 PM

Ibrahiim,
I think you are veering too much off into the fantasy land.
We have only recently realized that there is an Indian sword pattern we had no idea about. We still have divergent opinions whether it is North or South Indian. We have no idea of its name. Even our dedicated "indologists" are mum about any even circumstantial descriptions in the literature. In short, we have several very real examples, but no information.

Let' s take a deep breath and wait for some.

It will come, sooner or later. This forum has long memory: Kai posted the very first example in 2005, and it took us 11 years of silence to recognize that it was not a fluke.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th July 2016, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Ibrahiim,
I think you are veering too much off into the fantasy land.
We have only recently realized that there is an Indian sword pattern we had no idea about. We still have divergent opinions whether it is North or South Indian. We have no idea of its name. Even our dedicated "indologists" are mum about any even circumstantial descriptions in the literature. In short, we have several very real examples, but no information.

Let' s take a deep breath and wait for some.

It will come, sooner or later. This forum has long memory: Kai posted the very first example in 2005, and it took us 11 years of silence to recognize that it was not a fluke.

On the contrary Ariel; I think a lot of the content places Forum on the same page... We have realized the Indian style and the Afghanistan type... We have joined the form to Chinese influence and we know the Turkic Mongolian link...

I see no fantasy land here... and if this form has been swimming about for 11 years do we not owe it a better look?... I think what you mean is that the scent went cold 11 years ago...but you have to admit it aint cold now!!

Granted we have no name yet... and the puzzle looks drawn out potentially across several countries which is understandable considering the development and influence over time...

As to Northern or Southern Indian the pointer indicates Northern with accents of Afghanistan loud and clear... Indian Court Swords may have sprung up in other Indian regions independently ...The Cavalry clues seem clearly of Northern regions...influenced probably from the Ottomans..

Putting on the hand brake is not the way we work...From a cautious start up there are now several more examples to consider.. It develops reasonably. Clues lead us on... Get digging !!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th July 2016, 11:29 PM

By pure fluke I note that at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post203680 there is a more modern style of Afghan sword with a very similar gooseneck finial at the top of the knuckleguard . This is very similar to the Afghan Pulouir which in turn is similar to the sword being discussed here. This leads me to suggest that the style of weapon we are looking at in this thread may, in fact, originate in that region. Afghanistan.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th July 2016, 12:05 AM

I found another sword hilt to comply with the design being looked at. In this example it appears I think, as Moghul form but with a broken knuckle guard and it is a Birdhead with knuckle guard and Tunkou...

Illustrated as a museum exhibit it reads; Quote"Indian sword hilt from the collection of Arms and Armour in the Prince of Wales Museum, now known as Chattrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sanghrahalaya, Mumbai India.'' Unquote.

See https://www.pinterest.com/pin/397372367093427700/

24th July 2016, 11:29 PM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	By pure fluke I note that at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post203680 there is a more modern style of Afghan sword with a very similar gooseneck finial at the top of the knuckleguard . This is very similar to the Afghan Pulouir which in turn is similar to the sword being discussed here. This leads me to suggest that the style of weapon we are looking at in this thread may, in fact, originate in that region. Afghanistan. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th July 2016 at 12:03 AM.

25th July 2016, 12:05 AM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I found another sword hilt to comply with the design being looked at. In this example it appears I think, as Moghul form but with a broken knuckle guard and it is a Birdhead with knuckle guard and Tunkou... Illustrated as a museum exhibit it reads; Quote"Indian sword hilt from the collection of Arms and Armour in the Prince of Wales Museum, now known as Chattrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sanghrahalaya, Mumbai India.'' Unquote. See https://www.pinterest.com/pin/397372367093427700/ Attached Images

24th July 2016, 04:54 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Ibrahiim, The horsehead (in India termed 'hayamukhi') is a popular motif, it seems most often found on dagger hilts from Jaipur and Rajasthan (Pant,1980, C, CCXXIII, CCI ). While Rajput favor would be presumed, this form was also known to be used by Mughals in richly carved jade, nephrite and crystal. A full length sword with horsehead hilt and ganga yumuni (chevron) blade is also found dated 1750 from Jaipur. It seems that the crossing of well known dagger form hilts and longer or full length sword blades is not unusual, in fact the lighter profile of this hilt with the knuckleguard brings to mind the Indian bichwa and chilanum. The presence of the tunkou on this is notable, and would seem indeed to recall Central Asian and perhaps Ottoman influence. We have seen that the tunkou feature is well diffused through Turkic spheres, it is not as commonly seen in this style in Afghanistan and India, though similar koftgari applications are of course known. The tunkou it seems according to scholars such as David Nicolle and Philip Tom, was indeed most likely intended for securing the sword in its scabbard. In the case of numbers of Chinese sword and others with the feature on the edge rather than back near the guard, it is presumed to have acted as an added ricasso for finger protection. In most cases, swords without the tunkou seem to rely on the langet for placement and securing the sword in its scabbard. This particular horsehead sword does seem to resemble those bring discussed with knuckleguard and recurved terminal as well as tunkou, and I would be inclined to agree with North India, Afghan regions.

24th July 2016, 02:03 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Tunkou was created for a particular function explained above. Subsequently, it became a purely decorative element, largely presenting as just a decorated triangular (mostly) part of the root of the blade. The technique of decoration varied from place to place and koftgari was used for that purpose in the places where koftgari was a popular decorative technique in general. Some examples of tunkou used magnificent combinations of gold inlay, gems etc: see yataghans of Bayazet and Suleiman. Some had massive tri-dimensional plates: Greek for example. Cheap Turkish yataghan had just an outline of tunkou scraped into the body of the blade. North African Yataghans often carried miniature crenellated round all-metal plates. And you are right: the "Indian ricasso" was quite likely a distant descendant of the original nomadic wide and blunt root. The "orientation " of tunkou also changed: originally , the long arm of it went along the edge, but already in the 14 century we can see it going along the back of the blade.

24th July 2016, 05:55 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ibrahiim, I think you are veering too much off into the fantasy land. We have only recently realized that there is an Indian sword pattern we had no idea about. We still have divergent opinions whether it is North or South Indian. We have no idea of its name. Even our dedicated "indologists" are mum about any even circumstantial descriptions in the literature. In short, we have several very real examples, but no information. Let' s take a deep breath and wait for some. It will come, sooner or later. This forum has long memory: Kai posted the very first example in 2005, and it took us 11 years of silence to recognize that it was not a fluke.